Building a Firm Around Culture

Jonathan Hawkins: [00:00:00] So you mentioned marketing you know, what’s sort of your marketing stack, so to speak?

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah. We’ve tried to diversify it. That’s been a big initiative for us recently. You know, we grew a lot when things weren’t in person through online marketing, SEO website content, that world continues to change. I think it will never be the same as it was. And the acceleration of the change, I think is really being driven by AI and how people find you.

And so we have a new website. We launched just the beginning of this year, but we’re looking at other ways to reach people digitally, and some of that’s paid ads and social referral marketing, if I had to name one thing, it really helped us kind of catapult to the next level has been a big thing for us.

And that could be you know, through a variety of different sources, client referrals, providers, attorneys and our line of work it really has to be a variety because people don’t know who they need you until they need you. You know, so it’s not like estate planning, right? It’s different.

Welcome to the Founding Partner [00:01:00] Podcast. Join your host, Jonathan Hawkins, as we explore the fascinating stories of successful law firm founders. We’ll uncover their beginnings, triumph over challenges, and practice growth. Whether you aspire to launch your own firm, have an entrepreneurial spirit, or are just curious about the legal business, you’re in the right place.

Let’s dive in.

Jonathan Hawkins: Welcome to Founding Partner podcast. I’m your host, Jonathan Hawkins. Looking forward to today’s guest. We’ve got Kevin McManus with us today. He is a personal injury lawyer, primarily in Kansas City but he also has a long-term disability practice as, as well, and I think he’s got more than one office and probably a number of attorneys.

But Kevin, welcome to the show. Glad to have you. Why don’t you introduce yourself, really tell us a little bit more about your firm.

Kevin Mcmanus: Thank you Jonathan, and thanks for having me. It’s good to be here. Yeah, you’ve got that correct. we law firm, I [00:02:00] started about oh six, seven years ago. We are now at we practice in two areas. Primarily, most of what we do is personal injury related. We do have a practice area for long-term disability claims.

ERISA claims more of a niche practice. We are in both states, Missouri and Kansas. We have offices in Overland Park, Kansas, downtown Kansas City, Missouri, as well as Lee Summit, Missouri suburb of the city. We’ve got 16 folks on staff now four attorneys and just delighted to be here and, you know, have a conversation with you.

I’ve been a long time listener. I’ve listened to several of your podcasts in the past. Know several folks who have been on here, so it’s great to be here in person.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I’m glad to have you. So, first question that’s interesting is, I’m not sure I’ve interviewed anybody that’s on border town that’s

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: so what is that like, you know, obviously I guess you gotta be licensed in both states in terms marketing and all of that.

What’s it like being on the border there?

Kevin Mcmanus: [00:03:00] Well, it’s confusing when you talk to someone who’s not from around here, you know, so anybody who’s not from here gets really confused about it. But for us it’s just natural. I’m born and raised here and grew up blocks from state line, our law office, you know, we can see both states from the windows behind me.

So pretty natural for us. But yeah, you, there’s obviously at Kansas City, Missouri, there’s a Kansas City, Kansas, and then there’s, you know, just the general MSA is about 2 million people across both states. And so, I guess a unique situation. I’m sure there’s other situations somewhat similar in dealing with multiple municipalities, but with the state law differences, there are pretty substantial state law differences between the two states.

And those affect how you handle cases in each state. Fortunately all our attorneys were licensed in both states, and that’s pretty common. But yeah, we’re, you know, to me there’s nothing different and it adds a little level of variety to what we do.

Jonathan Hawkins: So how do you go about do you get light, you take the bar exam in one [00:04:00] state and then

Kevin Mcmanus: Yep.

Jonathan Hawkins: do you do two bar exams?

Kevin Mcmanus: I took both. I guess I, it was masochistic in that regard. I think you can nowadays waive after a certain number of years. But not every lawyer in this area is gonna be licensed in both. So that isn’t something people just take for granted, but doesn’t stop people from trying to handle cases in both states, you know?

So, so I think you know, never been an issue for us. It’s just something we’re used to here, but yeah, I think attorneys will probably, at this point in the world, I think they’re waving in after practicing in one state. They’re waving into the other.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, so I’m in Atlanta, we’re not on a, on the border, but you know, along, along the Georgia, Alabama border, the city’s there. So you could practice in both. But then you’ve got the time zones. I mean, you could be literally an

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: you know, within 10 minutes. You just cross, the state line. I guess you,

Kevin Mcmanus: That’s interesting.

Jonathan Hawkins: one time zone, right?

Kevin Mcmanus: Yes. Yeah, we don’t have that problem.

Jonathan Hawkins: yeah. So, well, cool. So, take us back before you started your firm. I wanna know, let’s go back to the beginning. I, my understanding maybe you started, I’ll call it big [00:05:00] law. is that correct? Is that what you

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah. Right, right. Outta law school. I mean, I did what I think we were taught to do, which was pursue the most successful path, which was trying to get a job in big law. And I’m saying that in quotes because I now, you know, like many of us, I think, understand that there’s many different paths, and that’s not the only path to success.

In fact, like a lot of folks, that’s not the right path for them. But I did do that and I worked for a large corporate firm, NA, nationwide firm that’s based, had a large office here. Enjoyed it, learned a lot but knew kind of that at the end of the day, I, it wasn’t gonna be a long-term fit for me.

And so, I think it was a good experience, but I also, you know, the entire time I was there, essentially, I was kind of knew that there’s probably something else, although I didn’t know what that was.

Jonathan Hawkins: So what did you do? What kind of work were you doing at the big firm?

Kevin Mcmanus: A variety a variety, some corporate, some litigation, some class action defense. You know, what was nice about it was it gave me the ability to try a lot of different things and to learn [00:06:00] from some attorneys that were really, I think, I mean, obviously their hourly rates were very high end, and I think they were doing high-end work.

So I, you know, nothing but good things to say about kind of the quality of the legal experience or education that you get in a firm like that. But but yeah, was a variety.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, within big law, there’s lots of different ways to go about it too. And I remember just, you know, however many years ago now, I’d been out, I don’t know, 10 years maybe. I’d done trials, done hundreds of depositions, and I was on a big case that had some big firms here in town and there were people that were my year outta law school doing their first depositions. So what was your experience like? Were you able to get, frontline type experience quick, or were you sort of the chain?

Kevin Mcmanus: No, I got quite a bit of good experience pretty early on. I was only there three years though. And I’d say when I transitioned out of there into a medium smaller to medium sized firm, it really started changing [00:07:00] I think the level of responsibility very quickly. I mean, I noticed a distinct shift in just the economics of it.

Like, we’re giving you this case and you’re gonna run with it. As well as you’re taking all the depositions, you’re developing the strategy and you’re gonna try it. You know, so it’s like that was a very distinct change and I think at a larger firm wasn’t my experience. I mean, it was a much more like you’re part of a team and there’s quite a bit of oversight into what you’re doing.

Jonathan Hawkins: so what made you leave? Leave the

Kevin Mcmanus: Well, and let’s see, 2009, I had a crazy idea that I wanted to I had volunteered in the political world. I decided that there was an open seat in the Missouri legislature and I was gonna run for it. And somebody told me at the time like, the worst thing that could happen is you might win.

And anyway, it started a long process and I did actually end up winning. And that was a big reason why I had to leave that firm. But at the time it’s like anything, a door closes and really a new one opened and there was just a huge amount of opportunity for [00:08:00] me to do both the legislative work that I was doing, which was not a full year job.

It was, you know, we’re in Jefferson City five months outta the year and still be practicing law, you know. At this medium sized firm. So, and I was able to work my way up at that firm into a partner track situation. But then, you know, the story goes, even then I kind of knew I always wanted to transition to plaintiff’s work, and how I ended up doing what I’m doing today.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, let’s talk about your political career for a little bit. So, so I guess, did you have to go to the firm you’re at and say, Hey, I’m running. Did you have to

Kevin Mcmanus: I did,

Jonathan Hawkins: Get permission from them?

Kevin Mcmanus: I did. And they did not want me to do that. So,

Jonathan Hawkins: How did, well, well you did it. So was that? Sorry guys. I’m doing it anyway. See ya. Or I’m and we’ll see what happens.

Kevin Mcmanus: yeah, no I think it was, I, you know, I made the, I think at any point in your life you have to make your own decisions as to what you want your life to be like. And I distinctly remember having that conversation and then being told like, there’s no place for [00:09:00] you here. That firm also heavily lobbied.

In the state capitol. And I think that probably impacted their decision. I was also told I was in the minority party, so my use was not, maybe it’s the highest quality use. ’cause there were other people who had those double rules who they felt were more useful. And, you know, you develop certain value sets as you go through these experiences.

And for me it was really educational on a lot of different levels and it was difficult, you know, it was a little scary ’cause I’d explain to my parents, you know, like, oh, and my wife, I’d just gotten married that, you know, this six figure job right outta law school wasn’t gonna be my career. And there was, you know, there was some concern about that, you know?

And not from me. That’s the funny thing. I mean, I was probably a little concerned about this, you know, am I making it? But I think that’s the beautiful thing about being in your twenties with relatively little responsibility. And so I always encourage people, if you’re gonna like. We all are, I think, have to take certain risks in [00:10:00] life.

But it’s a lot easier to do those sort of things when you don’t have kids and you don’t have a lot of obligations. And so for me, I was willing to just risk it.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Before we hit record, I was talking about, you know, at one time I thought I was interested in politics, so I took a sabbatical from my firm and I went and worked down at the Georgia legislature as a council to the House Judiciary Committee. So, which was awesome.

And in Georgia it’s typically a three month session. Although that year was right after it was fallout from the great financial crisis. So didn’t want to have to pass the budget ’cause it was. you know, a fraction of what it was the year before. So they were having to cut all this stuff and tick people off, so kept punting and it turned into like four months, which was like the longest it’d ever been.

And firm was like are you coming back or not? You know?

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah,

Jonathan Hawkins: but the interesting thing, so there were, you know, a number of lawyer legislators and I remember thinking, and some of ’em were from the out outlying counties and pure solos we’d be in committee meetings and they’d be on their laptop drafting briefs and, [00:11:00] you know, doing all this stuff. And it really hit me hard. I was like, it can be difficult, particularly if you’re a

Kevin Mcmanus: it can be difficult. Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: to do both. So, I don’t know if you sort of ran into

Kevin Mcmanus: Oh yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: handle it?

Kevin Mcmanus: Oh, it was super hard. And you know, there’s a lot of ways I could talk about that, but and I know those guys, I know those people, men, women who are the small firm lawyers doing both legislator, lawyer, and look, we may disagree on a number of different things, but I have total respect for people who are able to balance that.

And I think it’s great that people are willing, it’s a huge sacrifice. You know, for someone to go away from their family, go serve I can tell you’re not doing it for the money, at least not in Missouri. You know, I think the pay is like 30 grand and you know, you’re away from your family. You’re having, you’re probably not gonna be able to live on that salary, although some try to, I think it’d be very difficult.

So you’re trying to kind of, you know, do this night work basically to keep things going. And so, but here’s the great aspect of it is I think, and I think we’ve lost track of this, but I [00:12:00] do think there’s a very valuable thing to have lawyers in legislatures. And it doesn’t really matter what your politics is.

I think people who a, read bills, you know, is becoming more and more scarce and b can actually think critically about. Consequences, unintended or not, of those of that legislation extremely valuable. So I think it was shocking to me how, you know, how little people actually knew what they were voting on.

And the people I felt like I could always go to, and by the way they were on both sides of the aisle, were some of my fellow attorneys and we could kind of debate, Hey maybe we should change this word. You know, you know, or put a semicolon in there, you know, small little things can make a big difference.

And as lawyers, I think we all understand. You’re trying to understand what the statute says or why it says this. Who the hell wrote this and why? I can tell you it’s not always well thought out. And things are passed at times and you’re wondering like, did anybody even pay attention to this?

So that’s a long way of answering it. I [00:13:00] think for me it kind of talks it gets me kind of into this transition of why I ended up on the plaintiff side ’cause that medium sized firm primarily was doing defense work. They didn’t represent a lot of auto insurance companies or traditional kind of insurance companies that you may encounter in my current line of work.

So I was able to say to them, Hey, I’d like to start trying to bring in some plaintiff’s cases. And because of our relationship, they were willing to let me bring in some PI cases ’cause there weren’t conflicts. And I just was fascinated by the clients I was getting, even though there were small cases, I was fascinated by the stories.

And here’s the kicker, I was able to generate revenue without billing hours, which for me was like a major leverage point because I had another job that was also you know, taking up my time. And so a light bulb kind of went off as like, what if there was a way to structure this so that, you know, we were able to, I was able to basically maximize my time better.

And get more results and have the revenue been driven by the results and [00:14:00] not by the hours I build. So they kind of, that, that actually, that issue that was dealing with or grappling with the not much time actually was another reason why it kind of led me into the line of work I’m in.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah interesting. And I agree with you really. Well, number one, it’s a sacrifice. People think that, you know, that on the state level, that the legislators are these fat cats or whatever. But I mean, a sacrifice, especially if you’re self-employed you’re relying on work require is dependent on the amount of time you put into it, like bill and hours. And so there aren’t in Georgia either, aren’t many of the legislators that are lawyers. And I saw the same thing. It’s just like you felt like there were some. I’ll put it some bozos passing stuff. They didn’t know what it was.

Kevin Mcmanus: Right. Right.

Jonathan Hawkins: it was interesting. So I was on the, I, you know, we, I was sort of in the house judiciary committee and that’s where all the meaty bills did happen to go there.

That’s where all the lawyers were on that committee. So that one

Kevin Mcmanus: Yep.

Jonathan Hawkins: we saw some really meaty stuff, but Alright, so you, the light bulb [00:15:00] goes off. Maybe you, you were interested in the plaintiff’s work already, but the light bulb goes off that, hey, maybe it’s not dependent on hours and billing. maybe this is something I can do. And so you started that at your other firm and you’re still at the legislature. What was the timing of you leaving that firm to start your own? And were you

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: Elected official or how, what was the timing around?

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah. So, I’m trying to remember ’cause it’s a little bit of a blur, but I think what happens is I’m, I have a child with my wife and I decide that I don’t really want to go to Jeff City. This is a bigger commitment now, but it. You know, there’s a bigger commitment at home that I wanna be a part of and it was a major, anybody who’s had a child knows that first one especially, you’re just like, it’s life changing. You’re like, oh my gosh, it’s amazing. So we had our first son and I knew I had to eventually make a change, and so I ended up leaving the legislature. I ran for the city council here in Kansas City, and I won that election in 2015.

After serving, I was elected three times. The legislature left there then served [00:16:00] two terms in the city council. And at that point, I, that’s when I was transitioning to a medium sized firm and starting to do PI work. And then as I termed off the city council, I knew I would have a lot more time that it was worth taking the leap and trying to start my own firm.

And so, that essentially started in about 20 19, 20 20. And so we’re, you know about. approaching six years really of doing what started as a solo project for me as far as a solo project going into Covid nonetheless which was, you know, a crazy time in and of itself. But that’s really the path it took.

It was not an overnight thing for me though. It’s just like everything in my life, been just like decisions are made, but it’s incremental, you know? So that’s why it’s sometimes hard to remember exactly how this all happened, but it’s been a great,

Jonathan Hawkins: to start your, to leave and start your own firm, that is, I mean, you’re taking a leap there. So,

Kevin Mcmanus: yep.

Jonathan Hawkins: what was it that sort of pushed you off and said, all right, I’m doing it.

Kevin Mcmanus: I think, [00:17:00] you know, it’s always well, a couple things. One my father was defense attorney and then transitioned into the plaintiff’s side and had a solo practice, and he was retiring at the same time I was. Contemplating this. And I saw what he was able to even accomplish as a solo attorney.

It was kind of inspirational to me. I was like, you know, and I think at the end of the day, it’s, if I had one thing, it’s not necessarily about, it’s certainly not about money. I think it’s about freedom and control. And for me, like the idea of being able to control who my clients were, what kind of practice I had, how we did the work we did, and to have the freedom to decide the future of the organization was just something I felt like I had to try.

And all these decisions were difficult to make at the time. And now it like, seems kind of obvious, but like, it is scary. I mean, to say, you’re gonna take the leap, you’re gonna sign the checks, and how am I possibly gonna do all these different things? But it’s still, I mean, some elements of that are even today, but you just.

Do [00:18:00] what’s in front of you. And for me, like what was in front of me is like, I just felt like I needed to give this a shot to know whether or not it I can make it work.

Jonathan Hawkins: So here’s a question that, you know, I encounter a lot in my line of work, but so what was the conversation like when you go to your firm and say, Hey, I’m leaving. Were you a partner?

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah. I just been made a partner. I just told him look like we were, I was doing a small amount of plaintiff’s firm work and I wanted to do a hundred percent and I just felt like there wasn’t gonna be that our paths were diverging and that there they were never gonna be able to fully be in line in alignment.

The interesting and kind of crazy thing is that firm actually went out of existence about two years later. And unrelated to me leaving, but they had older partners who were all kind of retiring. And I think we see that, that’s not like a knock on them. It’s just, you know, that’s what happens in our industry is, you know, firms come and go, particularly in the smaller to mid-size level.

And if you don’t have kind of that bench to bring them up [00:19:00] it becomes very difficult. So, but for me, it was like, I just knew that the paths weren’t really in alignment and the conversation was not difficult. It was very easy because it was kind of clear, I guess, at that point.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. You know, it is interesting. So I have my theory on the lifespan of Affirm, or the Max lifespan of Affirm 35 years or within five years of the last founder leaving

Sort of like the, there are exceptions, but that’s sort of, especially in

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: firm so you see it a lot.

So it sounds like you sort of good timing on your part other than Covid.

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah. You know, for me, COVID was in a way a weird blessing. And I know that sounds crazy, but what it made acceptable was the ability to grow virtually. And that was a huge opportunity for me early because I didn’t wanna bring in a, I was scared to death to hire employees and to spend money.

But at that point in time it wasn’t, it was like, where will you put ’em anyway, [00:20:00] you know? So I had a small solo office. I was part on a floor with another plaintiff’s firm that was much larger, much more impressive. And but I was able to grow a virtual staff through COVID as we grew at a, you know, at a much more affordable rate with less overhead.

And it wasn’t weird to clients because nobody was meeting in person. And it forced me at the time to really invest. The savings and technology and put money in to the best software, the best systems, the best cloud, you know, everything. So that the experience virtually could be top notch for the client.

And that’s something we still have as like a value of what do today.

Jonathan Hawkins: That’s cool. So, so yeah. So tell me what’s your setup in terms of virtual you know, I’m sure you have some VAs, maybe some o

Kevin Mcmanus: Yep.

Jonathan Hawkins: but what about your attorneys? I mean, your hybrid what’s your setup?

Kevin Mcmanus: So we have one attorney that is pretty much a hundred percent virtual. But the other three are in person. We are in total, like I said, 16 people. And so I think we’ve got [00:21:00] 12 us. And then our legal assistants, with the exception of one, are all virtual and it off and near shore. We have one in Mexico, one in Argentina, one in Peru, and one in the Philippines.

As an my executive assistants in the Philippines. So we’ve got a mixture but everything’s in the cloud and we have a way to communicate seamlessly to each other that it’s not weird. And it’s kind of been part of our culture since the beginning. So it’s worked well.

Jonathan Hawkins: Culture. So that’s I do wanna talk about that. So I came across you, you had a post on LinkedIn about culture that I thought was really cool. And it so I wanna ask you, you know, sort of your approach to culture, but especially since you’ve got these virtual components.

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: is, you know, it, I think maybe I’m wrong, but it feels like it’s a little more challenging to create sort of a cultural, good feel when people are virtual, you know, not there. So how do you approach it?

Kevin Mcmanus: No, it’s huge. Well, we’re running on EOS and we have an implementer who’s local, and we have a [00:22:00] leadership team that meets regularly. And then we have, you know, full team meetings. We just did our quarterly state of the company. Just this week our most recent one. We are talking about our values and our culture all the time.

So it’s not, it’s just something you know, someone told me you’ve, if you really wanna instill those things, you gotta live it. And that’s just the way, like me, I have to embody that to the best I can. And so I take that really, you know, that’s something I take personally. I kind of think of myself as director of culture, director of values along with other things.

The things we do with our people who are offshore are a variety of things. We have so we developed a new client gift care package, and we shipped them all over the world. We sent one to every single. One of our VAs. We paid all the tariffs not to go down that rabbit hole, but we we send you know, we have virtual firm meetings that we have the technology to make people feel like they’re all here together.

Which [00:23:00] requires a lot of cameras and setups and mics, but we are able to do that. We have regular team meetings with everybody. You know, our tech is pretty, I, you know, I think allows us to do a lot with that. Now are they in the coffee room? No, they’re not. So you’ve gotta find other ways. We’ve done a holiday dinner where we actually rented out a room in a local restaurant and got a big screen in there and had all of our people from throughout the world eating with us, and we paid for their meals too.

And so. there’s, you just have to be creative about it, but there’s ways to accomplish it. And I just think the talent that you’re able to get throughout the world is incredible. And you’re sleeping on it if you’re not exploring it. You know, we’ve had just, I just think really incredible valuable team members who are not here make great contributions to the firm.

They get massive numbers of reviews from clients because they’re just like we try to overstaff our cases. So the clients are just like being communicated [00:24:00] to a lot. And I feel like we, it would be difficult to do that financially if it was all just us based. It gives us, I think a leverage point.

I’ve even gone, and we, I think you’re, you know this, I traveled to South America and I actually met with one of our VAs in Argentina and had lunch with her. And so that was. That was cool. But anyway, I think it’s definitely possible. Is it for everybody? It’s up to, I guess, you know, each person has to decide that, but for us it’s worked really well.

Jonathan Hawkins: Okay, so here’s a question about culture. So, you know, you work so hard to create the culture, maintain the culture, all that stuff, and then you need to grow your team. And so you’re gonna be adding new people into the mix, which is always, you know, it’s, you never know how that’s gonna work out. And, you know, hear people and sort of the hiring approach.

Some people say, you know, hire, you know, hire for culture, hire for potential, or hire for experience or whatever. So how do you balance the bringing

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: team members into your existing culture, and how do you get ’em into the fold?

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah I think [00:25:00] hiring for culture is huge. I do believe in hiring for that as a filter before almost anything else. I mean, clearly if you’re, if it’s, if, let’s say if it’s a specific skill you’re needing, like a high stakes litigator, like obviously that’s important, but for me, it doesn’t matter how great a litigator are, if you’re a complete jerk, you know, we just won’t work well together.

We, you’ll cause more problems in our firm than it’s worth. And I think. Many of your listeners probably have been at firms where they have someone who’s very productive and, you know, good at their job, so to speak, but terrible with people and a real cancer on the culture in the firm. And it’s not worth it.

It’s just absolutely in my mind, not worth it. So that’s a filter for us, and we start with it early. So even in the interview process, every single applicant, the job ad as well as the interview process, we’re posting our values as part of that, as a filter. And we have several levels of how we handle the job interviews.

So [00:26:00] there’s usually multiple, there’s always multiple levels and they’re usually being talked to about the values early and often. But at the end of the day it’s, you know, it’s really hard. I mean, how do you really know until you get somebody in the door? And so you’ve got to you’ve gotta make a leap of faith, I think with people based on.

You know, what you find out in the interview process, as aggressive as you can be, and then have a really strong onboarding process that allows your team to integrate with them quickly. And again, to be in reinforcing that culture. And I have regular check-ins. We hired four people in our firm of 16, which is a huge amount in the last 45 days.

And so we’re, we just went through a massive kind of, for us, you know, for a larger firm, that’s no big deal, but for us, it, it was a, you feel that from a percentage standpoint and we’re still gonna going through it. But it’s gone really well. And I really think the reason is ’cause we took our time and really pushed the culture [00:27:00] first.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, that’s a big percentage increase all at once. Pretty much. Yeah. Impressive.

Real quick. Thanks for listening. If you’re getting any value out of this podcast, please take two seconds to hit the subscribe button and leave a five star review. It would really mean a lot to me. Now back to the show.

Jonathan Hawkins: So you mentioned I know a lot of folks that are on it. How long have you been on it? And, you know, people tell me that, you know, it is just like night and day or hockey stick after they’ve implemented it.

What’s been your experience? How long have you been doing it and

Kevin Mcmanus: We are in our second year. We, and I don’t think it’s a full two years. We’re probably approaching a full two years. When we started, we, when I first inquired about it, it would’ve been, I think I, October, it would’ve been like October, 2020. So yeah, probably about 16 months. And I remember we had nine people, ’cause I remember someone told me EOS is for companies with 10 or more people, or, you know, if you Google it, that’s what it says.

And I was like, well, maybe we don’t need it yet. [00:28:00] And so I started talking to people and of course everybody who’s part of E os will tell you, oh no, you need it. But so, you know, that made me kind of wonder, well, maybe this is just a sales thing, maybe this is a gimmick. But as I started educating myself about the system, about the way they approach, I.

The team building aspect and getting people in alignment and the metrics. I started realizing that it’s like, it’s been great for us because it takes a little bit of the pressure off the founder, right? It starts pushing it out through the organization. Doesn’t mean that my job’s like easy, but it means that the burden is shared and communicated right, so that people understand like where we’re trying to go and what we found is like they’re either accepting that or they’re selecting out of it.

And fortunately we’ve had, you know, really strong selecting it. But for us it’s been a great thing. And is it an investment? I mean, to pay an implementer, we don’t self implement. There’s, you gotta, we’re paying somebody, but it’s worked really [00:29:00] well for us so far.

Jonathan Hawkins: So I’ve talked to a ton of people who’ve done it, but they’ve never said what you just said. And I think that really really hit hard for me. When you said it, it ticks the burden off the founder a little bit and pushes it out. I think that is, that’s cool right there.

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah, and I didn’t expect that, you know, but I, it, I felt it palpably, you know, it’s like, because, you know, you, anybody who starts a business is going to bed and all they’re doing is thinking about the business. I mean, I am, I, is it every night? Probably not, but it’s almost every night I’m thinking about it, you know, and so I’m not saying I’m not doing that anymore.

I’m saying though that I feel better because I’ve communicated there’s a mechanism, a framework for us to communicate issues, metrics. You know, process our people, you know, and we’re able to communicate these elements of the business out, frankly, first to a leadership team. But even in our state of the company, I’m sharing way more information.

I [00:30:00] never thought I would with our entire team at every level. And there’s something cathartic about it, but there’s also something about the power that comes with that, because what I’ve noticed is it starts coming back to me through our team with ideas, with ways that they want to help push the needle for, you know, further so that we can achieve our goal.

So there’s, it’s, I think that’s what really makes it powerful is allows this team to kind of really focus around a central vision and get in alignment.

Jonathan Hawkins: I like the way you’ve said it, man. You may have said it better than anybody I’ve ever heard say. It’s that’s really cool.

Kevin Mcmanus: I’m not being paid by EOS, I promise.

Jonathan Hawkins: But you know, I mean, I, and I feel this, I’ve been feeling this recently, it’s just as a founder of a firm and I love it. I mean, it’s fun.

It’s, I wouldn’t wanna do anything else, but it feels lonely sometimes. And it’s like, it’s all in your head and how do you

Kevin Mcmanus: Yep.

Jonathan Hawkins: and, you know, how do you get, you know, it’d be nice to have a team around you to really help push the boulder up the hill. And it sounds [00:31:00] like EOS is a good way to do that.

So that’s

Kevin Mcmanus: here’s what’s great is once you decide on your one year, three year, five year goal or whatever it is, when you’re talking to your team, it’s not about Jonathan being the bad guy saying, Hey, this is where we’re headed and I need you guys to help out more. Instead, it’s, this is where the firm. And specifically the leadership team has told me, the founder, that we need to go, this isn’t just coming from me.

This is like, this is now the firm, this entity is telling me, and I have an obligation to do what I’ve been told to do just like you all do. And you know, we’ve all decided this is where we’re going. And so it you know, it’s just, I think it’s a powerful way communicating that because it’s no longer just about you, you know?

And really that’s the way ultimately we have to escape the wake up in the middle of the night is to make this business not just about ourselves. It has to be about building a really good team that can function without us.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. And I always tell people, you know, the less [00:32:00] your firm or your business depends on you, the more valuable it’s,

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: all be working towards that. So, a minute ago you mentioned traveling down to South America. I really want to talk about that. I saw you

Kevin Mcmanus: I.

Jonathan Hawkins: LinkedIn post on that as well.

And correct me if I’m wrong, but you took three months and went with your whole family down to Paraguay left your firm and went down there. So what was that like? So, I mean, this is, there’s so much there, but

I mean, you know, just preparing for that, well, number one, deciding to do it, then

That, and then being there and actually seeing what happened.

So how did all that go down, man?

Kevin Mcmanus: yeah. So, kind of give you a little background. It didn’t come outta nowhere. So my wife her family is from Paraguay originally. They live in the United States or US citizens, but, and she was born in the United States, but they have a lot of family in Paraguay, and I’ve been to Paraguay with them several times.

My wife, when she was a child, she went there so much that she stayed there for a prolonged time, kinda like this, and went to school there. You know, their school schedule’s different so that. The summer here is actually [00:33:00] winter there, you know, and so schools are still in session while our kids are off.

And so, it was something I think important to her that our kids saw a different culture that they were put in an environment where they were, you know, immersed in a different language where they were able to see and meet relatives of hers that, you know, otherwise they wouldn’t possibly meet. And so, you know, something important to her.

So bottom line is she’s like, we’re doing this. And so, me being and support husband says, okay, great. Let’s figure this out. How are we gonna do this? And was there trepidation? Yeah, there was quite a bit. You know, we’re growing fast. We’re busy, I’m busy. You know, my Spanish isn’t that great, my kids’ Spanish, isn’t that great?

Where are we gonna live? Where are they gonna go to school? But I think I put in that post like. You know, it’s occurred to me throughout life that like a lot of the worst case scenario things that come up in my head, maybe not anybody else’s, but in my head, they come up, don’t actually end up happening, but they become impediments to like action.

And this situation is a great example of that. Like, I had all [00:34:00] these things, I was like, this is gonna go terribly wrong. And we got there and it was totally fine. You know, our kids went to a school, that was the funniest thing is we picked them up and you know, we’re in May 20, 25 right now, but it was May of 2024.

We picked ’em up the last day of school and we’re like, okay, we’re packing up and we’re gonna go and you’re gonna start going to some new school.

Jonathan Hawkins: happened to our summer dad? What? What?

Kevin Mcmanus: Right. So there was, I think if anything, there was consternation over that. But

Jonathan Hawkins: So real quick, how old are your kids?

Kevin Mcmanus: I have an 11-year-old and a 9-year-old, and they were, I guess 10 and eight at that point.

Yeah. So they went to the school that, you know, had, it was they. Fortunately this school, we didn’t throw ’em in at school. It was like totally a hundred percent Spanish. It was half English. Like half of the day was English, half the day was Spanish. But you know, they were, they didn’t, I mean, I’m so proud of them because like to walk them in to a place they didn’t know anybody and they didn’t speak the language.

And you know, we’d only even been in the country for like a week, you know, or less than a week before we dropped them off. You know, I just remember walking outta there being like, I don’t know how I [00:35:00] would’ve dealt with that, you know? But they’re, I mean, kids are so resilient. It’s just crazy. And so when my 8-year-old came outta there, he’s like, I’ve got four friends and they’re all named Pablo.

And I’m like, that’s amazing. You know, and they’re both really into soccer. And they were like, you know, my 8-year-old was also like, I saw a kid had a goal off a corner kick. We’re not even allowed to head balls, you know? And I’m like, yeah, well you’re in South America now, man. That’s how they play soccer here.

So, you know, they, it was a great experience for them. We, you know, I didn’t, I worked the same schedule. I work here just remotely. Before I left, you know, I told our, one of our VAs in Argentina, I said, I’m really nervous about this. And she said, Kevin, I’ve been doing this for three years. For you, it’ss not a big deal.

Like, you’ll figure it out. And fortunately, we had a really, we have a great in-person team that to the extent things were needed in person, were able to handle it for me. So it was a mixed you know, a mixture of ways that we, you know, could make it work. But it was a great experience.

Jonathan Hawkins: That’s [00:36:00] cool. And I hope, you know, one day your kids will, you know, when they’re a little bit older, they’re gonna really appreciate that experience. If they had

Kevin Mcmanus: I think so too. They also saw.

Jonathan Hawkins: they were 15 or 16 they’d have been pissed off leaving

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s also like, not to get too far off the track here, but for them to see how other parts of the world live and particular, you know, places where, you know, Paraguay is one of the, if not the most poorest country in South America. It’s one of the poorest, I think Bolivia might be above it, but, or in terms of poverty.

But you see things that we, you know, in the US we think things are, you know, in a tough spot, but you see things there at just a different level. But you still see people amazingly happy given very, you know, limited means. And I think that gives you a unique perspective. I hope it makes them, I don’t know.

My hope is that, you know, make help make all of us a little bit more grateful about what we have and you know, kind of inspires them to take advantage of the opportunities they were given. Not take them for [00:37:00] granted.

Jonathan Hawkins: so back to the prep to go. So let’s talk about prepping your firm. What sort of things did you do? I mean, did you do some test runs and you left for a week here and maybe left for a week there to sort of see if there were any systems that would break? Or did you just cold Turkey. I’m gone for three

Kevin Mcmanus: I mean, I have taken a week off before. And so yeah, there were some test runs I guess, but I don’t know how you really test run that.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah.

Kevin Mcmanus: Like, you know, it’s, at some point you’re just gonna do it and they’re gonna figure it out. And I think that’s actually the lesson in all this is that at some point your team needs to step up and they will, you know, if you’ve hired, gotten the right team on board, they will figure it out.

And it’s incredibly empowering to them. And by the way, you know, I work a lot. They’re always, I was always accessible if there were issues, so it wasn’t like they were completely. You know, alone with dealing with things. But yeah, it wasn’t it wasn’t as big a deal as I thought it would be, to be honest.

Jonathan Hawkins: That’s cool. So did anything break? [00:38:00] Did any,

Kevin Mcmanus: No we had our best three months that we had in 2024 when I was gone. We won our largest LTD appeal in the history of our firm, and I was the primary attorney responsible for that. So that was like really cool to call the client and share that news. We really had no issues. So maybe we just got lucky.

Jonathan Hawkins: well,

Kevin Mcmanus: I dunno, but it worked out fine.

Jonathan Hawkins: lessons here is you had your best year, best three months ever. You need to do this more often.

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah, maybe, but we’re not gonna do it this year, so.

Jonathan Hawkins: So, yeah. So do you have, so I’m curious, you know, you’ve done it. Any advice, you know, this has been a dream of mine. My kids are in high school now, so no way I could do it now.

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: a summer, maybe. Like I tried to convince my kids to go to Spain. telling my wife we should go to Spain this summer. And she was like, I don’t know. She mentioned to the kids and they’re like, we don’t want to go. I was like, great. You know, that was just for like two weeks. I can’t imagine going to ’em saying, alright guys, we’re

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: months. for me, [00:39:00] I, it is gonna be a while but that aside, so if anybody out there that may wanna do something like this do you have any advice?

Kevin Mcmanus: Well, for me a huge leverage point was the fact that I was on a similar time zone. I was basically on East Coast time, and so I was an hour ahead. So I was already working before many of my team were even at work, you know? So I think it would be harder. I mean, I would love to do that in Spain. I think Spain’s a beautiful country.

But I think the time zone difference might, you know, make it a little bit more challenging, like you’d have to figure out a way to navigate that. So I think, you know, that might be one thing to flag, but other than that, no. I mean, it’s really about, I think having documented processes and making sure your team is really clear about what that process is, and just being super diligent about how to delegate things.

I mean, those are not unique skills. Like those are things that are kind of like business 101, like you, you need to know how to do these things to grow a [00:40:00] business. But they’re, they become really important when you’re remote, particularly anything in person. But no, other than that, I mean. It wasn’t, like I said, it just wasn’t as big a deal as I thought.

I don’t think we’re gonna be doing this again anytime soon. Although when we were coming home, my wife was like, already well, you know, what’s the next,

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah.

Kevin Mcmanus: you know, I’ll tell you one thing that came out of it that was cool is I’m still working with a woman who works at US Embassy. There, we do lessons twice a week in Spanish. So I’m still working on my Spanish and we serve about 15 to 20% of our clients really have some level of Spanish some of them are exclusively Spanish speaking clients.

So that to me has been interesting and helpful.

Jonathan Hawkins: So where would you grade yourself? Proficient?

What,

Kevin Mcmanus: not, I would say proficient. Need to work more on you know, when people are speaking very quickly, it becomes very difficult for me. And then I, I. The main thing we’re working on, I can read very well. I think the main thing is just comfort level and com, you know, [00:41:00] dealing with conversant Spanish as well as just different slangs and dialects.

Like, there’s so many different, the way they speak in Paraguay is actually quite different in using different words and tenses than folks who are of Mexican descent. So it’s just, it’s interesting to me, like, you know, the differences, but I find it, look, I don’t know that I’m ever gonna be completely fluent.

My goal would be to make a lot of progress in that, but I was telling somebody this recently, if anything, it forces me to use a part of my brain that we don’t otherwise use. And in particular, that skill of being a beginner and being comfortable, being uncomfortable and like doing things that are like that I might sound like an idiot.

And just being comfortable with that. You know, I think that to me is. You know, some people cold plunge. This is my cold plunge.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. You know, a after college I went I moved to Costa Rica and did sort of, you know, lived down there for three and a half months and, you know, did some immersion [00:42:00] programs and I had no Spanish, so I went down there pretty much cold. I think I studied for a week, got on the planes, looking a book, listened to some tapes. And it was interesting sort of the progress, you know, at first you trans, it’s like you hear it and you translate in your brain. And

Translating both ways, right? English to Spanish English. But then it got to a point where it was just going directly in and out Spanish,

Kevin Mcmanus: yes.

Jonathan Hawkins: cool.

And then eventually you’re sort of maybe dreaming a little bit in Spanish.

Kevin Mcmanus: Yep.

Jonathan Hawkins: But yeah, I was I forgot it all, but at the time I was, you know, you could you could drop me anywhere and I could get by.

Kevin Mcmanus: Cool. Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: other thing I remember too is when I didn’t know a word, would speak very slowly in English with a Spanish accent thinking maybe that would work.

But yeah. Well, that’s really cool. So, so shifted gears. So, you know, you’ve been at this, I don’t know what, five, six years now. How has your role in the firm in terms of, you know, your [00:43:00] day to day like moving from doing the technician stuff to

Kevin Mcmanus: yeah,

Jonathan Hawkins: how has that maybe changed over time and what’s a day like for you now?

Kevin Mcmanus: It’s less technician than it used to be and quite a bit less. I still really enjoy it and miss it and it’s something I kind of struggle with to be honest. I’ve talked to another attorney about this recently about how I still wanna. I still insert myself in cases and I still wanna be involved in cases and I don’t know that I’ll ever fully give that up, but it’s really, I think it’s really hard as you grow to do it all, it’s just so more of my time now is on management and we don’t have a real COO of any sort, so I’m kind of sitting in that chair as well as the, you know, I guess in EOS parlance it’s the visionary integrator, like I’m essentially doing both.

And that will eventually become an issue, I think, for us. So it’s something I’m aware of, but yeah it’s less the technician for sure. And you know, I still love what [00:44:00] I get to do. I love building our team and being a part of the growth of the firm, I get really excited about marketing and I.

You know, the things we can do to improve the client experience, those are where I probably spend most of my time right now, is really honing in on those two things. But it’s every day’s a little different, to be honest. So I wish I could tell you exactly what a day’s like. It’s different every day.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, sort of the fun part. So you mentioned marketing what sorts of things you know, what’s sort of your marketing stack, so to speak?

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah. We’ve tried to diversify it. That’s been a big initiative for us recently. You know, we grew a lot when things weren’t in person through online marketing, SEO website content, that world continues to change. I think it will never be the same as it was. And the acceleration of the change, I think is really being driven by AI and how people find you.

And so I. We, you know, we have a new website. We launched just the beginning of this year, but we’re looking at other ways to reach people digitally, and some of that’s paid [00:45:00] ads and social referral marketing, if I had to name one thing, it really helped us kind of catapult to the next level has been a big thing for us.

And that could be you know, through a variety of different sources, client referrals, providers, attorneys and our line of work it really has to be a variety because people don’t know who they need you until they need you. You know, so it’s an, it’s not like estate planning, right? It’s different.

So the way you stay top of mind has to be you have to use a variety of methods to do that. And so we’ve really diversified in that respect as well.

Jonathan Hawkins: So curious, your time as a political figure,

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: does that help at all? Or,

Kevin Mcmanus: No,

Jonathan Hawkins: I mean, just

Kevin Mcmanus: I, yeah, I was,

Jonathan Hawkins: campaigning, all that people, a lot of, I, I would feel like a lot of people know, you know, your name.

Kevin Mcmanus: I don’t know. I don’t know that it does. And ’cause I was talking to somebody about that not that long ago, and I struggled with that for a while. ’cause I was like, I spent this much time in this arena and did [00:46:00] I just, was that all time wasted? I don’t think it was. I don’t know that it is. No, I know it wasn’t wasted.

’cause I feel like we, I had a great impact on what I was doing, but I don’t feel like it led directly to clients, if that makes sense. Like, and so if someone said to me, Hey, I’m running for office to enhance my law firm career, I’d probably tell you like, that’s not a good idea. Like, that would probably be my response.

I do think there’s some soft skills that I developed through that experience and dealing with people, understanding how to read people, understand how to negotiate with people, deal with upset people, walk into a room full of angry people. You know, those are things that were very commonly done in that position.

And I think that’s extremely valuable in life. And in particular, it can be valuable in the personal injury law firm space because we’re dealing with people with emotions every day. We’re dealing with people who are difficult on the adjuster side, on the client side, whoever. There’s people who are taking positions that we have to navigate.[00:47:00]

And for me, the, that kind of soft skill has been, I feel really comfortable in that environment actually. And it’s, I think, been a big part of Of why our firm has grown like it has. Not necessarily like name ID getting clients, but, and how we handle cases and move things forward.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know that’s an interesting perspective. I remember many years ago, I’ve always been in interested in marketing, business development. And I remember many years ago, I was still an associate at my firm and I was just like, I gotta get my name out there. I gotta get my name out there. And I had this hair-brained idea that I would throw my name the hat for a court of appeals position and just run for a judge, knowing I wasn’t gonna win.

I was, you know, they had other older people, more established. I had this idea that just, it would just get out there. And I remember I talked to somebody about it and he said, that’s the dumbest thing in the world, he said, and he had done it. He had actually run for a court of appeals. And he said the opposite happened. He said no one sent him any cases. ’cause they were like, well, you’re gonna be a judge. so they sent

Kevin Mcmanus: [00:48:00] Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. It’s like what are you known for? Right? It’s not just that they know your name, it’s what are you known for and if you’re known for that. Yeah, that makes sense. Right. And if I was known for being in the legislature or city council doesn’t mean that I can handle a wrongful death case for your aunt.

You know, like, so, I do think, like I have gotten cases who, through people who knew me through this other life, but it was because we had, I think I. More of a personal relationship where they knew me very well. You know, and I think that is no, like, and trust, right? Or like the three keys to marketing.

And I think anybody can do that without running for office. Like you don’t need to run for office to be no, like to trust. And the baggage that you have to carry around if you win the election is severe. So, you know, it’s like one of those things. Be careful what you wish for. You might get it right.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, shoot. I mean, we talked about this offline too, nowadays to run for office you’re gonna piss off half the people and [00:49:00] not just, I disagree with you. I’m gonna hate you.

Kevin Mcmanus: Yeah, no, yeah. There, there’s a part of that too. Yeah. You have to take into account.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, I, you know, maybe you could run for a extremely local, non-partisan type race, but that might be even worse.

I’ve always told people no offense for anybody out there that may be on it, but like a local school board would be like the worst position ever. people get so fired up about their kids’ education. It’s like, you talk about walking

Kevin Mcmanus: Well,

Jonathan Hawkins: room,

Kevin Mcmanus: I, no, I mean, I can tell you like I, ’cause I’ve been at the state level and local that I felt like the closer, like, yeah, I mean, deal with more stuff and you’re more accessible right or wrong to whoever. I mean, I had people show up at my house with trash saying they wanted me to take it and my wife’s like, like it was one woman, but still, you know, it’s a little alarming.

So, yeah it’s a, thank it can be a thankless job, honestly. And I think school board, no doubt is a difficult one. Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Okay. [00:50:00] So you’ve been at this law firm building thing for six, seven years now. As you look back on it if you were talking to your pre-law firm or pre founder Sta person or maybe somebody out there that’s thinking about it what kind of advice would you give somebody?

Kevin Mcmanus: Things you might think are a problem are not as, they’re not the real problem. Like, I don’t know. Like I feel like I came up with a lot of issues, like, where’s my office gonna be? Who’s gonna help me? Or how am I ever gonna do the law? And also bookkeep, you know, or manage the technology.

Like those things are not hard. The key is to find good people to help you with those things, right? And the hardest part is knowing. Where your value is and putting your your tension, your focus, your time, and what you’re best at, and outsourcing and delegating the rest and not being afraid to spend some money to do that.

And that’s, [00:51:00] that can be scary. But I felt like, you know, and again, I mean, I just told you we brought in four new people, we’re still onboarding them. Like that’s scary. But I know because I believe in our firm that it’s gonna be okay. These are, and I’m, I feel confident we, we got the right people who are gonna help take us to the next level and it’s gonna work out, you know, it’s gonna expand our capacity to do good work, and that in turn is gonna expand the impact we have and ultimately the bottom line at the firm.

Right. So it initially though, it’s a scary thing to be spending money, you know, when you’re starting out. So you gotta like. To answer your question, I think I would be more apt to invest in things judiciously that will help us expand our capacity earlier and not be trying to just do everything myself.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, so, you’ve got three offices a handful of attorneys. You’ve been at it for a while. Now, as you look forward or I’m your EOS [00:52:00] guy, you gotta come tell me what your vision is, your 10 year vision or maybe even your 20 year vision. Where do you want this thing to go?

Kevin Mcmanus: yeah, I think we’re competing with ourselves, so I don’t really look at us as like, Hey, we want to be, you know, dominating this market. We want to be, in my mind, like the best version of our firm. And for us, like the best version to grow. I could see us increasing our impact and our revenue. We have a revenue number that’s big and bold.

You know, we want to grow our team, but I think the biggest thing for me is we don’t wanna sacrifice quality to do that, you know? And so, for us it’s not about necessarily increasing the quantity of cases. I think that’s part of it, but it’s really important for me that we are increasing the quality of the outcomes and that’s measured in a lot of different ways.

So our EOS mission is not just it’s not just to get a client a big check. Our EOS purpose is to help our clients achieve a maximum recovery, and that’s financial, medical, lifestyle, everything, as well as to build a better life. And so our [00:53:00] purpose, it’s, and I think that’s, it sounds obvious, but it’s really important to remind ourselves that like, we’re here to provide a value.

And I feel like that’s beyond just a check that from the guys that you see on TV and, I feel like if we can really hone that in, we can distinguish ourselves. And that’s our leverage point in our very competitive market. So right now, I’m going on a tangent here, but we’re reading as a firm abundant or unreasonable hospitality.

And we’re incorporating elements into our client experience that we are basically taking from that book. And I think it’s really important to do things like that because, like, look, we’re not in the restaurant industry, but we are in the service industry and like we have to distinguish ourselves from our competition.

And one way to do that is do things that are absolutely unreasonable that they wouldn’t otherwise expect. And so that’s part of our EOS mission. So I can see us we have, as part of our thing is to get another office. We wanna expand in the Hispanic market. We do want more clients and to continue growing, but we’re not growing just to grow for growth’s [00:54:00] sake.

We’re really trying to grow for quality. And quality for me is like quality of life, quality of outcomes, and quality of impact.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, that’s a good way to end it. I like that. That’s the way to it. So, thanks Kevin for coming on. This has been real fun. Been fun to hear about your story and hear about Paraguay, and when you spend six months down there, you can come back and tell us about that.

But for

Kevin Mcmanus: Thank you, John.

Jonathan Hawkins: that, that want to get ahold of you, what’s the best way to find you? What’s the best way to get ahold of you?

Kevin Mcmanus: Kevin McManus Law, K-E-V-I-N, McManus, M-C-M-A-N-U-S law.com is our website. You can find me on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, the socials. Or my email is just my name, kevin@kevinmcmanuslaw.com.

Jonathan Hawkins: And been putting out some good LinkedIn content, so, I encourage

Kevin Mcmanus: Thank you. Yeah, it’s been fun. I’ve met a lot of great people, including yourself, so been great. It’s great to talk to you in person.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Thanks for coming on.

Kevin Mcmanus: Thank you. I.

OutroUpdatedWebsite-1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the founding partner podcast. Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, [00:55:00] or wherever you get your podcasts to stay up to date on the latest episodes. You can also connect with Jonathan on LinkedIn and check out the show notes. With links to resources mentioned throughout our discussion by visiting www.

lawfirmgc. com. We’ll see you next time for more origin stories and insights from successful law firm founders.