Jonathan Hawkins: [00:00:00] Well, it may, it’ll take a while, but once it starts, it’ll be pretty good, but it’s a long-term investment, and not something for people out there. You don’t just rush into that for sure. If you’re not committed to do it for a long time, just gonna be burning your money.
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah, and I think it’s funny, I have this little sticky note right here is that says standardize before you optimize. One of the things I’m most proud about, our law firm is we have like the best standards and operating procedures and the best practice management software that is like dial everything is like the best, in my opinion that I have seen.
And so we have the ability to scale and without, if you don’t have that and all of a sudden you do some marketing project that like works really well, well now you have a bunch of other problems. And so I, I just think that whole, making sure that your operations are in order and every time you’ve got an issue that comes up, it’s a blessing ’cause it’s another problem to fix.
So that you can move forward. [00:01:00] At least that’s how we try to do it.
Welcome to the Founding Partner Podcast. Join your host, Jonathan Hawkins, as we explore the fascinating stories of successful law firm founders. We’ll uncover their beginnings, triumph over challenges, and practice growth. Whether you aspire to launch your own firm, have an entrepreneurial spirit, or are just curious about the legal business, you’re in the right place.
Let’s dive in.
Jonathan Hawkins: Welcome to Founding Partner podcast. I’m your host, Jonathan Hawkins. Today we’re gonna be talking to a Colorado personal injury lawyer named Keith Fuicelli. And he’s got a really interesting I’ll say story very sort of scary story from the outside. And so we’re gonna dive into that and how it’s affected his career and all that.
So you need to stick around listen to this story for sure. So Keith welcome to the show. Why don’t you introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit your [00:02:00] firm, where you’re located, sort of maybe how many attorneys, that sort of thing.
Keith Fuicelli: Sounds great. Thanks for having me on the show. Glad to be here. My name’s Keith Fuicelli and along with my law partner John Lee, we have a Denver based PI law firm.
Really do cases throughout Colorado. We’ve got seven lawyers total about 25 support staff. So kind of in that small, I would say medium size. We’re kind of creeping into the medium size law firm. But we, I. Are pretty aggressive on our advertising, so we do a lot of mass media. So we’re, we do have billboards and are about to go on tv.
We, you know, our thing is, you know, we have the fours in Colorado, which is kind of a big deal. Our phone number three oh three. Four. Four. 4, 4, 4, 4, 4. So it’s nice to have a single digit repeater and yeah, been in business now going on 16, 17 years and loving it so [00:03:00] far.
Jonathan Hawkins: Well, cool. So we’ll just dive into that. I usually save some of this for later, but since you, you talked about that, so, you’re getting into the, or you’ve done some advertising billboards, at least getting into more advertising. Did you do that from the beginning or is that something that, that sort of evolved over time?
Keith Fuicelli: It is definitely evolved over time because you know, the cost point is so high and the, it’s such a long play when you’re trying to brand, and if any of your listeners know Denver, it’s as competitive as any market. In the, you know, in the PI space. So every billboard seems like it’s a PI lawyer, every TV commercial PI lawyer.
So it’s very competitive. And so the mass media stuff is all relatively new, frankly.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, Atlanta, where I am is like
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: it’s funny when, you know, Georgia is now a battleground state. I don’t know if Colorado is so election year from like, you know, summer to November on my pi client attorney client they can’t afford to get on the air ’cause all the political ads have covered it up.
Keith Fuicelli: [00:04:00] Yeah. Yeah, I mean definitely when you’re in a market like this, it can be so intimidating. But we started from the ground up really working referrals and just trying to do a really good job and build that referral network and then would slowly start to do more mass media type stuff. And I don’t know.
I figured it’s like grow or die, right? I mean, in this business, at least that’s the philosophy we have.
Jonathan Hawkins: All right, so I’m gonna get, we’re gonna dive into that a little more, but I wanna go back. Go back to the beginning, man.
Keith Fuicelli: Okay. You got it.
Jonathan Hawkins: So my understanding is that when you got outta law school, you started out in DA’s office. Is that right?
Keith Fuicelli: Yep. I worked with the DA’s office for almost five years.
Jonathan Hawkins: So did you always know you wanted to be a trial lawyer and that’s why you went that route? Or tell me about that.
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah. I always knew always knew I wanted to be a trial lawyer and. It was frustrating when I graduated law school ’cause I was like middle of the class at CU and couldn’t get an interview. I wanted the big, you know, here at 17th Street, the big law firm, the big money, nobody would gimme the time of day.
And so luckily I had an internship at [00:05:00] the DA’s office and that morphed into a job offer. So it’s like you get paid in money, you get paid in experience, and there you get paid with a ton of experience. So definitely knew that’s what I wanted to do and always knew I really wanted to do plaintiff’s work.
So at some point I had been there long enough, had tried enough cases. I figure, all right, I’m ready to get out.
Jonathan Hawkins: So, yeah, that’s the thing, you know. I’m always curious about the folks that sort of know what they want to do. Going in. You know, I was sort of the same way I’ve told this story, but I went into law school knowing I wanted to be a plaintiff’s trial lawyer
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: and I’ve never done it.
Keith Fuicelli: that’s, yeah. I feel really. Fortunately, I think I read some book about some, you know, catastrophic case that some plaintiff Sawyer did forever ago. And I was like, oh my gosh, that’s definitely what I want to do. And somehow found my way here.
Jonathan Hawkins: Okay, so you started out at DA’s office. You did that for, you know, five years, probably
Keith Fuicelli: I,
Jonathan Hawkins: a of trial experience. Definitely. Probably in, court every day, I would imagine. [00:06:00] And then eventually you, you make your way out to a plaintiff’s firm or did you go to maybe the dark side for a little while?
Keith Fuicelli: Well, actually, this is a funny story. So I had interviewed at a pretty well known plaintiff’s firm in Colorado. I. And I didn’t get the job. I was so sad ’cause I really wanted that job so badly and they offered the job to somebody else. And so I had these friends that work at a big insurance defense firm and they’re like, okay, well why don’t you come interview over here?
And so they got me a job over there and I had been there like two months and the partner for that other large PI firm called me up and said, Hey. The person we hired didn’t work out. We’d like you to come work. And I said, okay, I’ll do it. So I had to go quit at a really big insurance defense firm where I was there for like three months, had to quit and went over to a PI firm where I was there about two years.
And so always kind of funny and I’m now very good friends with the partner at that defense firm who [00:07:00] hired me and I had to quit. Who then left the insurance defense firm. Firm and became a plaintiff’s lawyer. So small world,
Jonathan Hawkins: Wow. Yeah, I’m sure. How was that conversation?
Keith Fuicelli: it was fine.
Jonathan Hawkins: I just got here, but I’m
Keith Fuicelli: I know, and you know, they like, I’m sure they lost money on me ’cause I wasn’t really generating any revenue at that point. And, but I guess, you know, you don’t realize it at the time. But not only is it a small world, but. Our career paths. They seem like they take a really long time, but they’re in the end.
These are just like little blips of time that I don’t know if that makes sense, but it’s like, it seems like it’s a big deal, but then next thing you know that time’s passed and you’re like, best buds with the person.
Jonathan Hawkins: Okay. So you were at that firm for a while. Eventually you started your own firm. How long ago was that?
Keith Fuicelli: So we started this firm in 2007, so it is coming up on close to 20 years as again, just like I said, it’s like unbelievable how much time has [00:08:00] gone by.
Jonathan Hawkins: Wow. So I alluded to sort of, you know, I don’t know if we call it your origin story, but a very important story in your life. I mean, it’s just really incredible. I wanna hear about it. So, when did that happen, and why don’t you tell us what happened?
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah, well it kind of plays into when we started the law firm. So, what happened is I was out jogging one day around City Park, a big park here in Denver, and I got hit by a car that was going 45 miles an hour, so they had to resuscitate me at the scene. Everybody thought I was dead. Went to Denver Health where they saved my life, and I don’t remember any of this by the way. This is what happened. I was there for two weeks and then I spent almost two months at Craig Hospital, which just had a profound a impact on my recovery.
So I did suffer from a brain injury, and I’ve had nothing short of a miraculous recovery. In large part due to Craig Hospital.
But so the funny thing was had actually left that other plaintiff’s firm and was sort of partnering with this one plaintiff, older plaintiff lawyer. [00:09:00] And we had kind of planned to just have me sort of like eventually, I don’t know, run the firm or whatever. And then that happened and he had to hire somebody to come in ’cause I was outta work for, you know, six months easy.
And eventually it just wasn’t working anymore. And so eventually I just knew, you know what, I’ve got to, I just gotta go start my own thing. And so it was at that point that reached out to John Lee and we decided we were gonna start our own firm and off we went.
Jonathan Hawkins: So man, getting hit by a car, man. That’s intense. So, I wanna sort of unpack that a little bit and sort of put it in context of what was going on in your life.
Keith Fuicelli: sure.
Jonathan Hawkins: Were you married? Did you have kids when this happened? I mean,
Keith Fuicelli: So I was engaged and that created its own set of problems because like they, they wouldn’t tell my fiance at the time. I mean, it was a crazy story. I’ll just tell a little bit more of the story because if any of your listeners know Denver, you know, city Park is right in the middle and next to City Park is [00:10:00] 17th Avenue, which is, you know, two lane road in each direction.
It’s a big road. And so my fiance at the time had gone to the store to get groceries and she comes home and is cursing my name because I’m not helping unload the groceries. And she like, doesn’t understand what’s going on, what’s going on. Well, she looks down ’cause you could see the road and realizes the road is closed.
And she’s like, wait, what? So she like walks down. Road is closed on both ends. Police fire everywhere. And she goes up to some fire policeman and is like, what happened? And the policeman’s, like, somebody got hit by a car and I, we don’t think he made it or something like that. And she’s like, the light bulb goes off and she’s like, holy shit, that’s my husband.
Even though we weren’t married. And then eventually, you know, goes to Denver Health where when she got to Denver Health, they were like, well, we can’t let you see him until you meet with a social worker first. And so can you like, imagine what is going through. And [00:11:00] then, you know, when she finally comes in, like sees my feet and realizes it’s me.
Well, I’m intubated, I’m on life support. I’m like in a medically induced coma, like nobody knows anything at that point. And so that’s the way it kind of was. And then it’s just like a little bit of improvement, little bit of improvement. And yeah, and I, you know, I had a bunch of orthopedic injuries too, so, you know, broke my hip, broke my legs, you know, it was a big deal.
Jonathan Hawkins: I mean, really big deal. So, okay. so frame it up for me in terms of your job. I wanna make sure I understand that. So you were, you had left the other firm and you were sort of, did you have your own firm or you sort of just affiliated with this guy? How did that
Keith Fuicelli: No I did not have my own firm at that time. I was just kind of like an affiliated, basically just an employee that was working with just a real small outfit type firm doing PI work.
Jonathan Hawkins: And so were you paid on as cases resolved? So you didn’t, you weren’t getting a paycheck?
Keith Fuicelli: No. He [00:12:00] actually, no, I was on salary and I would get like a kick, you know, if I was working on stuff, I’d get paid, but, and he paid me. I mean this, he’s a wonderful human being. And he paid me my salary the entire time for, you know, it was a year and a, it was about a year before we finally parted ways.
So I must be getting, I’m getting some of my math wrong ’cause the accent was in oh seven. We started this firm in oh eight, not oh seven. So yeah, it was about a full year before I finally felt like I was, you know, back ready to practice law fully, and we decided it was best to split ways.
Jonathan Hawkins: You know, I I tell people solos mainly you know, I call it a hit by the bus plan, you know? And I mean, this is exactly what I. It’s four. And it’s, you know, for the folks out there that have their own firm, that they’re sort of the sole attorney
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: something happens to them, do you swoop in and sort of triage the practice?
Luckily you weren’t in that situation you were this other guy and he, you know, paid your [00:13:00] salary. That’s awesome. Incredible. but yeah, I mean, this thing could happen in an instant. I mean, you don’t even remember it. I mean,
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah. Yeah, I mean it’s that. It’s such a good point. I’m glad that you speak to people about having sort of that contingency plan because you know, bad things happen all the time and luckily, you know, like he was paying the salary, help pay the bills, had good health insurance, thank goodness I had killer health insurance, and that made a huge difference also.
Jonathan Hawkins: So what was the, you know, we don’t have to get into all the detail, but what was sort of the recovery like, you know, how long till you were really. Back at it practicing law full time. How long did that take?
Keith Fuicelli: So that’s a great question. It really took, I would say six months and I thought I could go back, but then I like tried to read a case and it was like literally reading Greek and. I just, I knew that I just wa was not there yet. And so I was like answering the phone scanning mail, like just doing [00:14:00] administrative type stuff.
And then, you know, it was almost like every six months I was like, okay, I’m back a hundred percent. But then six months later I’d feel better and six months later I’d feel better. And to this day I still am a changed person for sure, but I. Firmly believe and have zero doubt in my mind that I’m a much better trial lawyer now than I was before.
Which is kind of crazy ’cause you can think, wow, here’s somebody that gets, you know, brain injury and correct hospital for two months and now come out and I’m better trial lawyer than I was before. That’s something I would’ve never thought.
Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I mean, I imagine, and I’m sure this is absolutely true, that in the line of work you do when you have clients that are injured your ability to empathize with them and really their story to a jury ultimately, I would imagine just is through the roof now.
Keith Fuicelli: I think so. I definitely, you know, when you’re [00:15:00] talking to a jury about. You know what it’s like to not know if you’re ever gonna be able to work again, and that uncertainty having lived that, I think it comes, it’s that authenticity piece that jurors can sniff a mile away. So whatever it is, it I definitely feel a lot more connected to jurors now than I did before.
Jonathan Hawkins: And then when the defense attorney says, yeah, client’s faking it, you’re not gonna have any of that, are you?
Keith Fuicelli: They always say that. I mean, although they don’t actually, they rarely actually say that because that would just be too offensive to jurors to say it. They find nicer ways to say it. But yeah, I mean, we have ways of dealing with it for sure.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. That’s, that’s intense. So you, start getting back into it, and then at some point you go to your, now partner John Lee and say, Hey let’s start something. So, so tell me about that. What sort of drove you to say, all right, now’s the time and why did you do it with the partner versus not?
What was your sort of thought process?
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah. As far as the timing [00:16:00] that was kind of easy because it was, the decision was sort of made. For me in a way, like it was just obvious that I was either gonna have to go work for somebody else or start a firm, and so it was obvious at that time I wanted to start a firm. I liked the idea of having a partner because from the PI work sense of it, I thought, and this was just my thinking at the time.
That maybe clients are more inclined to hire a firm than a person, per se. And so, and we had different skill sets when we started out, he was doing more criminal defense and doing some different types of cases and I was doing, you know, strictly pi. And as time went on, that morphed into us only doing strictly pi.
But I do think especially ’cause I, I have lots of friends that are, I. Solo practitioners in the PI world and it has lots of benefits and it has lots of [00:17:00] negatives. I mean, the benefits are that you can potentially make more money ’cause it’s just one person, but sometimes maybe it could be lonely or when you’re there.
And so, I don’t know, it made sense to me. I’ve always kind of liked working with people and I like having a partner to bounce ideas off and our personalities mesh well together. So it’s been really beneficial, I would say, for me personally, having a business partner along the way.
Jonathan Hawkins: And you guys been together, what 17
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah, 17 years. Yeah,
Jonathan Hawkins: that’s a good, strong partnership for
Keith Fuicelli: been a long time.
Jonathan Hawkins: Alright, so, you know, you’d just come off an accident. You know, you had made a salary, but you weren’t really probably making the big bucks.
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah,
Jonathan Hawkins: you probably did not have much of a war chest, I imagine.
Keith Fuicelli: true.
Jonathan Hawkins: And a PI practice. You know, it takes a while to monetize those cases. So what was it like going out there with, not much or did you have a solution? Tell me about
Keith Fuicelli: Now I didn’t really have a solution. I mean, I had a little bit of money saved from getting run over by the car, but we, I didn’t use any of [00:18:00] that money. It the crazy thing is when I look back, it’s like, well, when you’re used to not really making a lot of money, then it’s not that hard to live on.
Not that much money. And so yes, some PI cases take a long time to monetize, but run of the mill small car crash cases, those can monetize quickly. And so I was fortunate that I had some chiropractic friends of mine that had worked with over the years, and if you ask for help and you’re like, Hey man, I’m starting this firm.
I need your help. They will send you clients. And so we were able to get this small set of relatively low level PI cases. But when you’re working in a windowless office, as John and I were, we were like one of those coworking spaces, windowless office sharing the, you know, when one of us was on the phone, the other person had to go sit in the hall.
But when you’re running on that. [00:19:00] Low of costs. Then if you get a $5,000 fee, it’s like a big deal. And I can still remember this kind of a fun story, so I was lucky. I was on our listserv and this one case, the, this one case had been dismissed and basically I was able to talk to the client and get me to come in ’cause it was wrongfully dismissed ’cause a lawyer had messed up.
So long story short is I’m able to get the court to reopen the case. And then we settled that case for, you know, $250,000. And so the fee on that was like, you know, 70 something thousand dollars. And I can, I still remember it was like my birthday and I was like talking to my dad. I’m like, dad, oh my gosh.
Just made $70,000 on this case. And it was it was just uh, something I will probably never forget. But I will say, you know, we’ve always. Every single month, settle cases, signed up, new cases, and it’s scary. It’s still terrifying to this [00:20:00] day when I look at all the people on our Zoom calls and when we have a lot of mouths to feed.
Our overhead is insane now, but you just gotta take the Indiana Jones leap of faith at some point, is what we call it.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Yeah, we’ll talk about that in a minute. So I wanna go back. So, for your. Your accident, were you a, a litigant? Did you go to, did you actually file suit and go through that as a litigant and depositions and all that? Or, Or how far along did that go?
Keith Fuicelli: We didn’t have to sue because my injuries were so bad and there was just one insurance policy that wasn’t that high that they just paid it.
Jonathan Hawkins: Okay.
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: know, It’s, I have, over the years I’ve done a, I’ve represented, you know, a number of lawyers in sort of law firm breakup cases.
Keith Fuicelli: Oh.
Jonathan Hawkins: And we’ve, you know, litigated some of ’em pretty hard. And I’ve represented what I call bulldog litigator types that are, you know. at ease in litigation and in, in the courtroom. And without fail, every single one has always told me at the end, they’re like, man, it’s way different. It’s way different [00:21:00] being an actual party. They’re like, I have a newfound respect for my clients.
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: so it’s, I was just wondering if you went through that or not, but it,
Keith Fuicelli: Luckily not, Luckily not,
Jonathan Hawkins: All right. So you guys start your firm. How did you know, did you have cases when you started or did you have to go get new cases?
Keith Fuicelli: I’m trying to remember. I felt like I had a couple, I had like one or two cases, but no, I had to go get cases. But I had this refer, you know, I had these like chiropractors that I’d worked with. I’m like, Hey, I’m starting a law firm. And even some of the legal community would send me their declined cases.
So those and can be just immensely valuable. They may require more work or they, sometimes the law firms sort of over didn’t see the value in the case, but was pretty quickly able to go out and get cases by just putting in the effort, having lunch with people, asking for reject cases and asking for referrals.
I. Yeah.[00:22:00]
Jonathan Hawkins: So tell me about that, the devalue cases. ’cause, you know, for those lawyers out there that, wanna start their firm for a plaintiff’s firm, you know, that is a a technique that folks use, you know, an approach they use. They go to the more established firms and say, gimme your, throwaway cases.
But, I’ve talked to some where, you know, sometimes you gotta really polish. That lump of coal into a diamond. So, how do you said they’re pretty valuable, so tell me about your thoughts on that.
Keith Fuicelli: Well, they can be valuable, but I think now in most states you can either get referral fees or co-counsel the case. So I would assume, and Colorado’s sort of backwards on that, because we are technically not allowed to do referral fees on cases. So you have to co-counsel now you, you can like co-counsel.
So it’s essentially the same thing except both law firms, except sort of like the ethical responsibility of representing the client, all that jazz. But in other states where it’s just a referral fee, well then [00:23:00] I would think it would be wouldn’t be hard to go to other law firms. And it’s, the thing to understand is every PI practice has a different.
Criteria for when cases meet their acceptance standard. And so if you’re willing to say, I’ll take the stuff that you won’t, that’s below that standard, especially if you just pay them a percent on the end, that’s a very easy way to become busy very fast. Also, if any listener is a real true litigator. And is competent at litigating cases.
There are lots of PI firms that have zero interest in litigating cases for whatever reason. And so if you can get in with one of those firms, they are happy to sort of work a case up and then for whatever reason, maybe it’s denied liability or the client wants more money, [00:24:00] whatever the reason, the case needs to go in litigation.
You might end up giving away half the fee, but you could be become very busy very quickly, and then you’re really mining those cases for the diamonds because the, I guess the last piece of that is really understanding how valuable these cases can be is critical and not undervaluing the cases. So then you’re working through this, all these different coal nuggets.
You see a case that comes in with a, you know, disc injury and a young 24-year-old person with no priors, and that’s a permanent injury and it’s a million dollar policy. Well, that’s a million dollar case, so swing for the fences.
Jonathan Hawkins: so now that you’ve been at it for a while and you know, you’re, like you said you’re about to really dive deep go big on the advertising. You moved up the chain a little bit? So now you’re referring out cases to, other folks, or do you keep all those in-house?
Keith Fuicelli: Well we, I mean we definitely, [00:25:00] well for example, we don’t do work comp, so we need to establish where we are co-counseling or referring out those cases. ’cause you know, we’re losing a revenue stream by just referring out those cases like we are right now and we’re in the process of trying to. Figure out how to monetize in some level.
Some of the D level, you know, we grade our cases basically a plus through D and if we’re going to D cases are cases that are you know, there, there’s, we don’t want them, but they are legitimate cases just because the juice is not worth the squeeze, frankly. So we need to figure out how to monetize referring those cases out to work in progress.
Like everything in this business, everything is always a work in progress. So we’re working on it.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, once you think you gotta figure it out, you gotta figure out a whole bunch of other stuff.
Keith Fuicelli: Hey, if any of your listeners are Colorado licensed attorneys and want to chat with us, we would be happy to work out some. And it doesn’t, I mean, we’re talking a very small [00:26:00] co-counsel, just something. ’cause right now we just declined those cases and then they’re just, you know, on the internet, finding whoever versus being able to refer ’em out or co-counsel or, you know, do something better than what we’re doing now.
Jonathan Hawkins: So what’s your role now in the firm? Are you, Are you trying cases still or do
Keith Fuicelli: Oh yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: do you have an active caseload?
Keith Fuicelli: Yes, for sure. Well, our, every, you know, partnership is different, but I am definitely like the trial person. I love trying cases. You know, I, I try as many as, as I can, so. Yeah, we’re, I try a lot of cases and I like to try ’em, you know, with people here, sometimes we try cases without people, but we and you know, we are a true trial firm where a lot of PI firms might not be, or they might say they are, but they’re not.
So, I personally believe that, you know, the real value in those diamonds. Is you got to be able to take it in front of a jury and get a verdict on those cases. And as soon as you do that, [00:27:00] settlements go up. Everything goes up. As soon as you prove to the insurance companies that you can mine that call for the diamonds.
Jonathan Hawkins: Nice. so what about your partner? What’s his role and how do you guys, you know, sort of balance each other out? And maybe also it changed over time? I’m just curious how the evolution of your guys’ role.
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah, it’s definitely changed over time because he, he still has a pretty big active caseload for sure. And it’s only been recently that we are sort of defining our roles more you know, more defined. So he is really handling more of the HR personnel side, and I handle more of the trial litigation strategy side.
I. But we both have active caseloads and we sort of envision that as we continue to grow those roles, will become more refined.
Jonathan Hawkins: So how many employees did you say had 70, 80?
Keith Fuicelli: No, no, no, No. Not, no. Seven lawyers. We have seven lawyers, including John and I, so five other [00:28:00] lawyers and about 25 support staff.
Jonathan Hawkins: Okay. Are you at the point where you’ve got sort of, almost like C-level non-lawyers working in your firm yet?
Keith Fuicelli: Well, what do you mean by C level? Not like lawyer like, or just C level.
Jonathan Hawkins: non-lawyer, like COO
Keith Fuicelli: Oh, Oh, the so not yet, but soon. So we, you know, we are in a you know, we do have consultants. And we do have an operations manager and a firm manager, and those are two different roles. So sort of the office manager handles all payroll, pr, you know, all the administrative in-house things.
And we do have an operations manager who is be like sort of like a COO, sort of, but not an official COO, although I would foresee that in the future at some point.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, I think it’s inevitable. I think you’re getting there, it sounds like. [00:29:00] and how long have you been doing the tv advertising?
Keith Fuicelli: We haven’t done it yet, so yeah, we haven’t even shot it yet. We’re still, we’re in the framing messaging phase right now, and so maybe third quarter, fourth quarter.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, your volume’s gonna be a lot higher next year. You’re gonna, you’re gonna have a lot more people.
Keith Fuicelli: That’s what, it’s funny, one of my very good friends said, you know what, the biggest problem you’re gonna have are people and space. So, but then I also think that’s, I don’t think it’s like you start going on TV and all of a sudden your caseload doubles. I think your phone calls might double, but your caseloads aren’t gonna double.
So, especially in a, this market is so inundated. We will see. Maybe I’ll come back on in a year and you can ask me the same question.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Well, it may, it’ll take a while, but once it starts, it’ll be pretty good, but it’s a long-term investment, and not something for people out there. You don’t just rush into that for sure. If you’re not committed to do it for a long time, just gonna be burning your money.
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah, and I think it’s funny, I have this little sticky [00:30:00] note right here is that says standardize before you optimize. Like, if you do not have, I’ll tell you right now, one of the things I’m most proud about, our law firm is we have like the best standards and operating procedures and the best practice management software that is like dial everything is like the best, in my opinion that I have seen.
And so we have the ability to scale and without, if you don’t have that and all of a sudden you do some marketing project that like works really well, well now you have a bunch of other problems. And so I, I just think that whole, making sure that your operations are in order and every time you’ve got an issue that comes up, it’s a blessing ’cause it’s another problem to fix.
So that you can move forward. At least that’s how we try to do it.
Real quick. Thanks for listening. If you’re getting any value out of this podcast, please take two seconds to hit the subscribe button and leave a five star review. It would really mean a lot to me. Now back to the [00:31:00] show.
Jonathan Hawkins: so let’s talk about that a little bit. You know, everybody says, you know, you gotta get your procedures in place, but no one ever really says, how do you do it? So how did you guys go about doing it and really getting that fine tune with the procedures and also the tech? I mean, did you hire consultants?
How did you guys really dial that in?
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah. So we did hire, I mean, I. I, I was gonna make a tongue in cheek answer, which is trial and error. But there’s a lot of truth in that. There’s so much trial and error, and the technology is evolving so quickly, as we all know. You know, for example, demands right now, a lot of people are outsourcing their demands, but now you’re bringing AI in-house to do AI demands in-house.
So that AI, I believe, has such. A huge potential to impact how we operate. That if you’re, you kind of gotta just jump in it and see how it goes. But to answer your question, I think we always have [00:32:00] designed our policies about, from the standpoint of what do I, the attorney running a caseload need to know.
And how can, so then when you think about that, so you might think, okay, I need to know what the treatment is. I need to know what the medical bills are. I need to know what the liens are. I need to know what the coverage is. So we just sort of started with the idea of like, this is what we need to know quickly on every case.
And then figure it out different systems that could do that. ’cause nowadays there’s lots of different practice management software options available to make that happen.
Jonathan Hawkins: It’s so true. I mean, it can be overwhelming all the choices out there
but so I wanna go back to your partnership.
Keith Fuicelli: okay.
Jonathan Hawkins: you know, again, you guys have been together 17 years. And I mentioned earlier I do a lot of law firm breakups, so I’ve seen, you know, the good and the bad. I’ve seen firms that have been together, you know, 35, 40 years on a handshake, and then some that are less than a year and they can’t stand each other.
[00:33:00] So what do you think, what would you point to as saying sort of the keys to a good partnership or maybe, you know, what has worked for you guys?
Keith Fuicelli: So that is an awesome question because I think I have an awesome answer. And it goes back to right when we first started our partnership. I met with a lawyer friend of mine’s, like from a parent. I mean he was a lawyer that was probably 70 years old. And when we started partner, was felt like I was 30.
And he said he’s the same thing as you. He had seen breakups after breakups. He was like a business lawyer guy. And he is like, money always destroys the partnerships. It can never be 50/50 has to be eat what you kill on some level. And so from the beginning we have always had some sort of eat what you kill model.
And I firmly believe that were, that not the case then that otherwise resentment kicks in, ’cause no matter [00:34:00] what, somebody’s gonna be resent the other person for whatever reason. So my only 2 cents in it is held true is never make it 50 50 has to always somehow be what you kill and you can build in all the different, well you’re gonna get credit for this referral or you do this or, I mean, there’s ways to come up with whatever formula works.
But in my opinion, I don’t think it can ever be 50 50 or whatever.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, I’m with you. For the firms that just pay out based on how much you own, how much equity you own it can work for a while, but you’re right, the resentments can pile up. You know, my view is, you know, a full eat what you kill probably. the best either. It’s sort of a little bit of both and how you weight it, you can vary.
But yeah. That’s interesting. So what about like when you guys disagree on stuff, just like the vision of the firm or hiring a certain person or stuff like that. How do you guys talk through that and make those decisions?
Keith Fuicelli: You know, I it’s hard for me to think of any that come to mind. I don’t know what that means, but I can’t really [00:35:00] think of any that were sort of, probably because I mean. I think it’s because we both accept that failure is a hundred percent part of the process and that you’re gonna make a million wrong decisions along the way.
And so I think anytime there’s a, an issue of whether to do something or not, we’re gonna err on the side of doing it. And then if it doesn’t work, then you’re like, okay. I mean, we made many, many mistakes along the way and but then we’ve made some smart decisions, so.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, like for example this TV investment that you
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah,
Jonathan Hawkins: to make. I mean, that that’s a big dollar investment. And you both have to be on board with that. So it sounds like you, you are, and everybody, and you’re both just like, let’s do it or were there any second thoughts or, or any, any.
Keith Fuicelli: the, so it is interesting and we’ve been doing billboards now for I feel like over a year. And the cost, which are very expensive. I mean, the quarterly cost for billboards is probably not too far off from the quarterly [00:36:00] cost of a camp TV campaign. And with now we have non-equity partners at the firm too.
And so I feel like some, it was harder to convince them that going on TV is the right move. For lots of probably obvious reasons, but at the end of the day, it’s John and I’s firm. And so we’re like, well, let’s give it a try. Let’s see what happens. And we know it’s a long game. We know it’s a long play.
I mean, the reality is you can be the best lawyer in the world, but if people don’t know about your law firm, then you’re, if you don’t have the best cases to work on. That it doesn’t matter. And so you can never stop marketing whatever that looks like. And now you see sort of all of the established firms on tv.
So there’s this whole like taboo about TV gone. You, I think in any, is that true in Atlanta too? It’s like the most established, it’s like everybody’s on tv, right?
Jonathan Hawkins: I mean, it’s wild. It’s everywhere.
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: billboards, tv, radio it’s, all over the place.
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: there’s new people [00:37:00] coming in every, couple months you see a new. A new face shows up. So, and some come and go and some show up and you start seeing ’em and they stay around. It’s interesting to watch.
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah, because it, I mean, because it’s very risky and like with billboards, they’re not even close to breaking even. But it’s a branding play and it’s long term branding plays. They’re not for the faint of heart. I will just say that.
Jonathan Hawkins: So let’s talk about this. So, so yeah, the billboards and the tv, that, that is a longer term play, branding, all of that. So, I assume your partner is, pretty close in age to you. ’cause you know, it’s one thing I’ve seen a decent amount of. When you have a firm and there’s a set of the older partners that are getting close to the end and then you’ve got sort of the younger group that wants to be more aggressive and has a longer term vision or play in mind, you get into this battle ’cause it the older guys, there’s like, let’s just coast and then I’m gonna get outta [00:38:00] here and then you guys can do whatever you want.
So, I mean, this is a long-term play, so I assume you guys are pretty close in age.
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah, we are. We’re light there. We’re both the same, same age.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, that’s good too. So, so yeah, that makes it easy. So yeah, so I wanna touch on some other things. So let’s talk about your marketing. You know, we’ve talked about the billboards and the radio and, the early days when you just, when went out for referrals. What’s your sort of mix now?
What, how would you describe your mix and how do you. Track, I’m sure sort of the buckets of how you get your cases. Where would you sort of
Keith Fuicelli: Well, we definitely,
we definitely track everything. You know, we still get a ton of cases on referrals, so luckily I, you know, I we’re, we do a good job. I. And sort of those long-term referral networks that we kind of established over the years. So we still get a lot of referrals. We get a lot of former client referrals.
We get, so they’re probably, the buckets are probably, you know, [00:39:00] one third of referrals from medical professionals, you know, one third from former clients and then the rest is probably. You know, Google Pay per Clicks, SEO type stuff Google, LSAs, billboards Radio, you know, all well we, did radio for a while.
It’s very expensive. And so I would say that’s kind of the breakdown of right now where cases are coming from.
Jonathan Hawkins: So another thing you’re doing, I don’t know if this, if you would consider this a marketing play or just, I don’t know what you consider, but you’ve got a podcast too, right?
Keith Fuicelli: I do have a podcast. You know what? I do not think it’s a marketing play, but I think it might turn into one but because the podcast is the Colorado Trial Lawyer Connection, and what I do is I interview Colorado trial lawyers after they try a case. I’m like, what worked? What didn’t work? You know, the judge give us insights and it like hit me one day when I was driving home, driving into work, I’m like, this is what I wanna do ’cause I want to become better and what better? How do I become better other [00:40:00] than having my friends on the podcast?
And so that’s how it all started. Which is probably how, it’s a good marketing because it wasn’t about marketing. It was like, what can I do to. you know, learn and become better. That being said, I think over time it might become that because it gives you some you know, credibility in the community for outsiders looking in. I don’t, and I think, although I’d have to ask our, sort of our people on this, but it does have its own web webpage, and so, and that provides links to our firm webpage.
So to what extent that podcast affects the firm’s. SEO rankings. I don’t know, but it could, it probably does. If I’m Google, I would sure wanna think that like somebody like yourself that’s has a podcast, I. That’s gonna give you credibility in the community, so maybe you rank higher. So it’s been a and I really enjoy it.
And the other thing I like about it’s, it keeps me really connected with the community. So then I see people and they’re like, oh, hey, I’d love to listen to your [00:41:00] podcast or whatever. It’s, so, I highly recommend if anybody’s thinking about it, what podcasts now are, Are much easier to do, to launch, to put out there and to utilize in social media marketing, et cetera.
And we haven’t even talked about social media marketing for like getting cases, but it’s a whole nother avenue there.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah let’s, yeah, on the podcast thing know, I’m sort of in a similar situation as you, you know, I started this podcast because, you know, I’m interested in the business and
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: I’m interested in scaling my firm. And I was like, I want to talk to all these other law firm owners that have done it. And they’re various stages along the way and, Learn from them. And it’s a, it’s sort of a way for me to learn
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: then everybody else just gets to listen and learn too. So,
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: So yeah. Let’s talk about social media. What kind of stuff do you guys do on social media?
Keith Fuicelli: I don’t know. I mean, I feel like you know, they say my comparison is the death of joy, and I feel like that every time I look on social media and I see what other people are doing. Our social we actually have our entire employee in-house that is like marketing for, does our [00:42:00] social media posts, does, you know, our t-shirts and all that component of it.
But it can work really effectively, it seems like, but I think it’s really hard ’cause it’s, the barriers to entry are none. And so there’s gonna be creative folks out there that are doing a way better job than you. So it’s almost just more like top of mind awareness type of thing. I don’t really feel like we get any cases from social media or very few.
Jonathan Hawkins: It’s hard to know and it changes so
Keith Fuicelli: Um,
Jonathan Hawkins: know, they, They change the algorithms and what works for a while. You gotta change it. Like, you know, I’m I’m less active now, but I’m pretty active on LinkedIn.
Keith Fuicelli: yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: And it’s, and LinkedIn is always tweaking their algorithm and, and, and there’s so many platforms, you can’t do it all. I mean, you just, you do what you can. So it sounds like you’ve got a person. What size were you when you actually hired a full-time in-house marketing person? I’m curious.
Keith Fuicelli: It wasn’t that long ago. Because for a while it was like [00:43:00] our office manager and then we broke off, and then it was like. Our o old office manager became our operations manager, and the marketing piece was sort of in hers, but I wanna expand on that a little bit because I feel like everyone has strengths and weaknesses and the key to success, at least in my view, is an understanding.
Non defensively what our own strengths and weaknesses are and those that we work with. Well, I’ve always been like a marketing guy. I’ve always had these ideas and it comes from like, I, I don’t know. I’m just always, so I’m like the idea guy and to recognize that’s so, that’s something that I, for, have a little bit of proficiency in.
We were able to take kind of my ideas and run with, and I could, you know, just tell my office manager, let’s do this and, and it would implement them. But we’re getting closer to needing a full like CMO, like a real marketing person that [00:44:00] knows, you know, you’re talking like TV buys and all these various components.
And I don’t, I think we are closer to, I would say if we double in size than we would be at that level, we would probably need a COO. At that level. But we do have a we do have business consultants and we’re in business mastermind groups. Those are both new, but I think both of those are gonna be hugely beneficial.
I don’t even remember what your question was, but hopefully I answered it.
Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I’ll tell you for me, you know, being in the groups and then hiring the, you know, hiring the expertise, it just accelerates everything. The other thing about being in the groups, I mean, I, I really enjoy ’em. But I, and I always come away with really good feedback and good ideas, but you’re always like, damn, I’m so far behind.
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah, I know. I just got, we just got back from a mastermind group and it was like, oh my, it was the whole first day. It was like drinking from a fire [00:45:00] hose, like, oh my gosh. So many things and yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, you guys have been doing it going strong for 17 years. So as you look back, is there any one or two or, or more things you can sort of say, okay this, this is why we’ve been successful.
Keith Fuicelli: I think if your moral compass is headed in the right direction and you’re doing things for the right reason. and that sounds cliche, but it’s almost like you have to be able to look in the mirror and really un understand why you’re doing this. So, you know, our firm has our core values and it’s always been something of, you know, treating people like family.
And it, it has to start with the client experience. If your like sole mission in life is to provide your client whatever kind of law you’re in. With the best experience, the Ritz Carlton, the Four Seasons level of experience, and that is your sole focus in life. You are going to be successful a hundred percent.
And we’ve always had that as like [00:46:00] our principle aim because then when you do that, then you have happy clients who leave reviews that you can use to do X, Y, and Z. So it just has to start with that. And everything else, I think, falls into line.
Jonathan Hawkins: So you mentioned earlier, you know, we’ve all made mistakes. You know, you mentioned earlier you’ve made your share. So looking back, you know, maybe are there any lessons learned and the way I frame it sometimes is maybe something that you did that you shouldn’t have done, or maybe something that you did, but you should have done way earlier in the firm. Can you think of anything there?
Keith Fuicelli: Well, the avoid mass torts. So just like, and anyone who has dabbled in mass torts, it is like high risk, high reward, but very, very, very, very, very high risk. And so you have to assume and it’s much more complicated than that. But that’s just one of those things that I dabbled in that I had, I go back in time, I would not have done that.
As far as. You know, [00:47:00] for us personally, I’ll say one of the things that we’ve done right all along is we’ve been trying cases from the very get go and we have always been like, we’re not afraid to go to trial, to go to trial. That really does pay such dividends down the road. But as far as like anything that we would’ve done sooner you know, I say we bought, this is a thing we did.
Good deal. We bought our building. It. And we happened to buy our building. It has been like 12 years ago, and there’s a time, you know, I was thinking about it and it’s like to rent com office space, it’s gonna cost you like 20, 30 grand a month, but we’re paying like five grand a month to pay the mortgage down.
So that’s all that extra capital that can go into marketing. So I thought that was a. Like a really good decision, which at the time felt it was painful. And I was like, God, I hope we just didn’t mess up. We, this seems like a big mistake. We actually just bought the building next door, so now we have these two places in Denver, next door to each other.
I, and I guess the other, I don’t know, it’s [00:48:00] so when you find good people, do whatever you can to not let them go. That’s. And get rid of. Get rid of the toxic people. Right. Hire fast or no. Hire slow. Fire fast. So just trying, I’m trying to think if there’s anything else that kind of jumps out.
Those are the main ones?
Jonathan Hawkins: Well, you nailed it there with the people that, that’s Huge, you know, the best systems in the world, but if you don’t have the right people, it’s just, it’s all gonna fail. It’s interesting on the building too. So I had some friends that were in Denver and, you know, so I sort of pay attention to real estate out
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: it’s exploded, so I bet you guys some serious appreciation as well as saving on the rent.
Keith Fuicelli: Well, yeah, I mean it’s, it’s sort of almost like a retirement thing where eventually, yeah, we could, you know, sell it eventually when we wanna say, you know, same with the phone number. You know, I talked about the phone. I will say, honestly, if these are, if you got young listeners who are thinking about doing PI and they can get a good phone number, they need to get a good phone number.
It is huge and we sort of, in Denver, Colorado’s really [00:49:00] hard to get single digit repeater phone numbers ’cause there’s only two area codes and we sort of, through skill and luck, were able to get the fours and I mean, I will tell you that we even got the seven, so we now have like 3 0 3 sevens, but we’re just gonna hold ’em.
We just didn’t want somebody else to get them. So I just think that having a, an easy phone number, especially ’cause if you’re gonna be relying upon former clients to send you business, well have an easy phone number for them to remember. So that’s a piece of advice I’d give people.
Jonathan Hawkins: Wow. Yeah. That’s interesting. So I know you, you gotta
Keith Fuicelli: I,
Jonathan Hawkins: here in a minute, but I want to ask, so, as you sit here today and you look forward to the next 10, 15, 20 years, you know what, what’s the vision for the firm? Where would you like it to be?
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah, I’d like I would, I could see us probably quadrupling in size in that timeframe just based, you know, getting us up to, just based on cases per month. But for me personally, what I’m most [00:50:00] excited about is. H how many A plus plus level K, how many eight figure verdicts we obtain. And I’ll re I gonna say how many eight figure collectible verdicts do we obtain in the next 10 to 15 years, and maybe even a nine figure verdict.
I was just at a seminar talking to a lawyer who obtained a $200 million insurance, bad faith verdict that was collectible. I mean, it’s like. You. Wow. Wow. You know, and, and just in Denver this week, last week in Denver, there was $155 million insurance. Bad faith verdict. Fully collectible. So for me, when I talk to those lawyers that are doing that, I’m like, and it’s not about, my wife sometimes is like, oh, you know, it’s, it’s not, the money is just like the measuring stick.
It’s not like, it is not the money. It’s that that’s just like for whatever reason, how we in this [00:51:00] business equate success or not. Like, you know, I don’t know if that makes sense to, to you, but
Jonathan Hawkins: it’s like winning a, it is like winning a Super
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: what are you gonna do? It’s, It’s just a trophy. I mean,
Keith Fuicelli: Yep.
Jonathan Hawkins: use it. You know, but you still want the trophy,
Keith Fuicelli: Yes. I want that trophy to be like, yeah, I got an nine figure verdict. You know, like, yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: So it sounds like that there are some pretty big verdicts in Colorado. It sounds like, you know, some states you don’t really see many big ones or what’s considered big there is not big somewhere else. I know Georgia has been for the last several years, I mean, been having some big ones. So big that they just passed tort form.
Uh.
Keith Fuicelli: It. I know it was on the, I know it’s all, yeah. Yeah, I know.
Jonathan Hawkins: did I tell you so in the middle of the session? So the session here, you know, they, they meet in the beginning of the year for three months or so, in the middle and tort form was the
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: show this year. And in the middle of it one of the long time well established trial lawyers here popped a $2.5 billion. Product [00:52:00] liability. I think it was in some sort of rollover type
Keith Fuicelli: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Jonathan Hawkins: of course, boom. The, you know, the headline, 2.5 billion. I’m sure you know, they’re holding it up on the floor, I’m sure they’re debating tort for ’em. But uh, yeah.
Keith Fuicelli: yeah. It’s, It’s that I hope, I don’t know, I, somewhere I was looking at the specific laws, so I don’t really know what specific laws Georgia just passed. I’m sure people can work with them and hopefully they’re, in Colorado, we still have, so for example, in Colorado, non-economic damages are capped, but we have this third category of impairment.
So Colorado, I would say is like a pretty decent place to practice, but it’s not the wild wild west where anything goes, no caps, and you know, swing for the fences.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Well, cool. Keith, this has been real fun, man, so I know you gotta go. So, for people that want to find you, I guess first plug your, podcast again, and then if anybody you know, has a case in Colorado and they need a trial lawyer, you know, what’s the best way to find you?
Keith Fuicelli: Well, the best way to find us is to call a fours. So the three oh [00:53:00] three fours. We are the fours, but uh, our URL is Colorado injury law.com, which in hindsight I think was a mistake. So you mentioned mistakes like having a long URL, but I was like, but it’s Colorado injury law, but now it’s kind of a pain ’cause my email isKeith@coloradoinjurylaw.com.
So if you could get just like a two or three letter, the shorter the URL, that would be my advice. Having made the mistake of going the other way, I thought our URL would like help us get cases, but may, I don’t know. Maybe it did, Maybe it didn’t, but yeah, anyone can just call us on the podcast. Is the Colorado trial or the Colorado Trial Lawyer connection?
So it’s on Spotify everywhere. You just type in Colorado trial lawyer. And should pop up, give it a listen. And I think it’s fun ’cause they’re like real cases and the same, just like this, it’s an hour and you, so you kind of hear a little bit about the lawyers, what they did, and then you hear about the case, you hear about the verdict.
And uh, for me it’s very [00:54:00] empowering and it motivates me to go to the battle in the courtroom, to go to trial.
Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I’ll tell you, I mean, I’ve always been the most entertained listening to trial lawyers talk about their stories from trial. It’s, there’s always good stuff in there. So, you know, I encourage everybody to go subscribe and listen to your podcast.
Keith Fuicelli: Ah, thanks. I appreciate the plug.
Jonathan Hawkins: Well, Keith, man, again, appreciate it. Thanks for coming on.
Keith Fuicelli: Yeah, it’s been a real pleasure and uh, really appreciate what you’re doing here. Helping people grow their firms and helping the business side. It’s, It’s critical.
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lawfirmgc. com. We’ll see you next time for more origin stories and insights [00:55:00] from successful law firm founders.
