The Early Grind of Starting a Firm

D. Margeaux Thomas: [00:00:00] I don’t want to just be a good player, I want to change the game. I’d like to do a lot of what we are doing now, just on a bigger scale. Help more people, expand more to southern Virginia and more into Maryland. Expand the staff, grow capacity. Take all types of decisions where I’m like, I don’t know what the outcome of this is going to be.

And it’s not about getting it right all the time. I think it’s more about learning when to pivot. That’s what I wanted to create. An environment where people want to come to work to help people and are invested in the goal. When do you get to the point where you don’t need to come to work at all?

Jonathan Hawkins: Welcome to [00:01:00] Founding Partner Podcast. I’m your host, Jonathan Hawkins. Today we’re talking with Margo Thomas, who is a business lawyer up in the DC area on the Virginia side. she’s been at it for a little while. She’s, been at big firms and now she’s got her own firm, which she’s had for a good long time now.

So we’re going to dive into all that. So Margo, why don’t you introduce yourself? Tell us about you what your firm does, where you are, all that kind of stuff.

D. Margeaux Thomas: Well, thank you. I’m really happy to be here. So I have a, I, when people ask me what we do, I say we do business divorces. Basically we assist business owners who are going through transitions with their clients, vendors, or business partners. And we just help them through that process. It involves a lot of tangential practice areas sometimes, depending on how contentious that relationship is or that transition. So, that is our bread and butter. But we also help businesses grow. We do a lot of contract and transaction, transactional work as well. And we’ve been doing that for about eight [00:02:00] years. And prior to that, I was working at bigger firms doing a lot of the same thing in addition to representing a lot of banks and financial institutions with their litigation defending consumer claims. So, yeah, happy to be here. We do Maryland, D. C. and Virginia work mainly but have some Some one off matters going on around the country at any given time as well.

Jonathan Hawkins: So I grew up as a business litigator doing business divorces too. So yeah, I know those issues and then I started getting into law firm divorces, law firm breakups, and that’s what led me down this path. But,

D. Margeaux Thomas: Oh,

those are the most

Jonathan Hawkins: those could get very contentious for sure. Not always, but sometimes, man, crazy. Okay, so tell me your firm.

So it’s who’s with you, how many attorneys, staff, is it in office, virtual, combo?

D. Margeaux Thomas: So we have six full time and two people on part time kind of different deals. There are two attorneys that are full time and [00:03:00] four non attorney staff, and then there’s two other attorneys that work on matters kind of under their own different arrangement, but not full time. And we are all remote.

We have an office in the city of Fairfax where we will have a deposition or post a mediation every now and then. But we mostly go there to water the plants and just hold down the fort. We rarely meet there. And we have people everywhere. We have a couple of VAs that are one in South Africa, two in South Africa, one in the Philippines. An attorney in Maryland, one in New York, one in North Carolina. And so we’re kind of faced about, you know, a little everywhere. But we have found a way to kind of have some community, even though we’re all spread out. So I like that aspect.

Jonathan Hawkins: So I’m going to, I want to go back to the beginning, but before we get there for these attorneys that you’ve added as you’ve grown, have you, well, first of all, have you always been remote?

D. Margeaux Thomas: I have always had a home office. [00:04:00] And at some point, at the very beginning the staff used to work in the office, and I would just pop in every now and then. I never really loved working in an office, even before I started this firm. And then I was like, it just doesn’t seem right to require people to come there, and I don’t even want to go there.

And I didn’t go there very often, and I was like, I don’t know what this is adding. So, then I just said, look, we’ll keep the office. We have, you know, Printers and things like that that we need but I don’t think it was fair to make them come in every day. So, you know, they can go if they want to, if they want to get out of their house, it’s there.

It’s the option for the people local. And you know, I thought that was the best decision at the time and people are happy with

Jonathan Hawkins: That’s cool. You know, everybody’s got their own, their own take on that. and some people they’re very firmly in their camps, but so you, so you’ve got all these attorneys that in your remote. So how did you find those attorneys and recruit them? Was it by accident? Or did you try to do it?

Tell me about that.

D. Margeaux Thomas: That has been the hardest part of this journey. It’s finding staff and I feel like a [00:05:00] large part of my day is dedicated to, you know, looking at ads, talking to recruiters, figuring out It’s basically an advertising campaign to staff the firm. And I’ve been very intentional about the people that I want to add. And just finding them is just kind of, you know, sometimes one of the attorneys I’ve been working with for years we found each other in a Facebook group of attorneys. Like I posted something and they responded and we’ve been working together ever since. One of the attorneys, Bob, I mean, he worked at the first firm that I worked at and hired me. So that was kind of a natural transition when I started my firm. Another, the attorney in North Carolina, she, we found her for a recruiter, so all the different avenues

Jonathan Hawkins: know, I tell people, well, I think anybody that’s run a firm for any period of time will all agree it’s, it’s the people. And that’s, that’s like the hardest part. I talk about this all the time. The other thing is I sort of got to the, came to the conclusion, always be recruiting always because it takes way [00:06:00] longer than you expect your timelines.

It may take a little while for them to align when they’re ready at the same time you’re ready And it’s you just got to you just got to do it all the time So I bet I bet you do spend a lot of time doing that

D. Margeaux Thomas: A lot of time. A lot of time.

Jonathan Hawkins: And so on that another sort of follow up on that. So In terms of the types of roles you’re looking to fill I’m always curious from a sort of a strategy standpoint. Is it are they filling? holes that you want filled in terms of capabilities, or is it just to add more of doing the same stuff? So for example, let’s say, you know, I was just throwing stuff out.

You needed like a trademark attorney and you’re like, all right, we’re going to go find a trademark attorney. Or is it just, we just need more business litigators.

D. Margeaux Thomas: So it’s not all attorneys to recruitment and right now I can tell you that I’m specifically interested in moving a current legal assistant paralegal to a more firm administrator role. She does a lot of that work anyway. She helps us with [00:07:00] operations and Just making the detailed procedures and training people on that and onboarding things.

I’d like to move her into that role. So we’re looking for a paralegal who’s experienced who can take on a lot of the work that she’s doing. I also have an ad running for a a business litigator because we need the capacity. And after that I will be hiring for a managing attorney because I would like to move out of the day to day work.

And I need somebody to oversee that. And then after that hire, I’d like to hire a fractional COO that kind of works with the firm administrator to make sure that everything is lined up that she’s doing. So I have a plan and some slots that I need to fill. I’m trying to find the right bodies and people to put in those.

Jonathan Hawkins: I was going to say, that sounds good. I mean, You’ve got the plan and you know how you’re doing it, you know, you’re gonna do this first next that’s that’s really good. Some people just It just comes at them and they do it on the fly, so that’s good. Well, cool. So, let’s go back. So, let’s go way back. So, to the beginning and [00:08:00] I’ll say maybe after law school.

So as you’re coming out of law school what kind of work were you looking to do and was it business litigation back then or was it something different?

D. Margeaux Thomas: I don’t think anybody who goes to law school really knows or maybe that was just my experience, but it’s really hard to know exactly what you want to do until you’re in it and doing it because it all sounds great from the outside until you get into the nitty gritty and then you’re like, this is mind numbing or it’s like nothing like I imagined it to be. And I kind of really was like, I like the criminal stuff because it’s like fast paced and, you know, there’s some interesting issues. You know, I just got hired at a firm that was like, we do business litigation and the partner in that area was like, I want you to be, you know, my protégé, you know, I want, I want to teach you how to do this.

And I was like, great. You know, I have a lot of loans. This is a good paying job. I’ll just let the criminal stuff go. So I took the job and you know, it was just kind of all. Transition from there, he ended up leaving and I ended up moving into an asbestos group, [00:09:00] which I really disliked and my work product was really bad because I was just really not into it. And then there was a partner who moved in who was doing bankruptcy work, bankruptcy litigation for commercial businesses. And I got to learn a lot from him. He eventually went on to become a judge. And then you know, I, I ended up changing firms and then was just. in the, could you run our department? And it was a kind of business divorces So, and I just kind of, y doors opened and sometime just kind of have to run it’s open. And I think th Kind of happened based upon just timing and being in the right place, right.

Jonathan Hawkins: I’m with you. So, I went to law school. I was convinced. When I started law school, I wanted to be a plaintiff’s trial lawyer. That’s what I wanted to do. That’s all I want to do. That’s how I structured all my elective courses, blah, blah, blah. And I’ve never done it in a day of my life. [00:10:00] Similar, similar thing.

You know, I couldn’t get a job. It’s very, very, very hard. At least that I’ve seen to get a plaintiff’s trial firm straight out of law school. They want you to give. work at a defense firm for a while. And so I, you know, I did that, but then I just said, you know, I don’t really like that. And I got liked business.

So I started going that way and similar to what you were saying, you know, some doors open, some other ones closed and you just sort of Eliminate things you don’t like and then all of a sudden you end up where you are. And so, I’m with you, you know, for anybody that’s young. It’s okay not to know where you’re going and, and you’re probably going to pivot a few times along the way.

So, take me through. So you, you worked at a firm at least right out of law school. How many firms did you work at before you started your own? And take me through that progression.

D. Margeaux Thomas: Two. So I worked at the first firm for about six years and the partner who had hired me, he ended up going to the firm that I ended up leaving and going to as well, which was directly across the street from where I was. And you know, it was just an [00:11:00] opportunity to do a lot of the same work, but on a bigger scale. And I really enjoyed the work. You know, I like. Helping people solve a problem. I like working with sophisticated business owners. Who know their craft very well and have built, built a successful business, but you know, don’t know the law at all or how to figure out this issue that they’re presented with. And So, you know, I went across the street and did that work for many years and I was right at the point where it was like a partnership conversation and they were like, you know, stay another year and you’ll be a partner. And at the same time, I was planning to start this firm with another partner at the firm and, you know, he pulled out very close to right when we were going to leave.

And, you know, I was like, maybe I should just stay. And somebody said to me. If you don’t become partner, people always question why you never make partner and that’s always going to be like a thorn in your side or whatever. And I was like, maybe he’s right. Maybe this is a bad decision. My If you don’t leave [00:12:00] now, you’re never going to leave, you know, this is your opportunity.

You’ve got all the things lined up for you. You just got to take the step and believe that this is going to work out. And I was like, you’re right, you’re right. There’s never going to be a perfect time. And I shouldn’t, you know, listen to all of that. That’s just a distraction from something I knew that I could do if I just started it.

So I took his advice and quit my job, which was a very difficult thing to do. And, you know, I guess the rest is kind of history. I mean, we’re out here for eight years now. So it would. Certainly the best decision I made at the time, but it certainly was a lot of anxiety surrounding it.

Jonathan Hawkins: So that’s interesting. So, you were planning to start a firm with another attorney and so you had made, I guess you guys have been planning and then all of a sudden. he or she’s like, I’m out.

D. Margeaux Thomas: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: Wow. It’s like rug pull rug

D. Margeaux Thomas: know. Yeah, I was like, wow. So,

it’s just me.

Jonathan Hawkins: did they stay at the firm? Did they go somewhere else?

D. Margeaux Thomas: They ended up going in house

which I think was a good move. And you know, they’re happy there. They’ve been there since. And I think that was, that was the move they were [00:13:00] supposed to make at that time. So, I’m happy it turned out that way. I wasn’t at the time, but, you know, I really like the autonomy of being the decision maker. And, you know, I don’t know. I mean, we got along, we still get along, we’re still friends, but, you know, you wonder what that would have, how that would have affected our

Jonathan Hawkins: they’re, they’re sending you work, hopefully, but yeah, so, okay. So you’re planning to do it and then all of a sudden the person backs out and then you all of a sudden you’re like, maybe I don’t do it. And so I, it was You know, your husband, I guess, helped give you a push and then you just said, all right, I’m just going for it.

Right. And so, you, it sounds like maybe you had already sort of set up at least semi, some of the infrastructure that you were going to be able to step into.

D. Margeaux Thomas: I have very little infrastructure and that’s what I like about starting law firms. I mean, you really don’t need that much. I mean, it’s not like a retail store. It’s not a restaurant. Like, you don’t need a lot of staff. You don’t need a lot of equipment. I had like a laptop. I was working out of my house. I was working.

I didn’t even have this office set up. This is like a [00:14:00] bedroom in my house, but I didn’t even have this. I was just working on my dining room table and my cell phone. I was like, what do you really need? You know, like this is, this is very low buy in to do this. So I, I was like, I don’t want to sign any long term contracts.

I don’t know how many clients I’m going to bring in. I don’t know how much money I’m going to make. And I had two, my twins were two when I started this firm. So I had, you know, daycare expenses that were through the roof. So I really wanted to keep it as lean as possible for as long as possible. I

Jonathan Hawkins: up sort of a, a war chest that could give you some runway?

D. Margeaux Thomas: used retirement

Jonathan Hawkins: Hmm.

D. Margeaux Thomas: but I ended up not meeting the retirement savings. Like I took it out. Thinking I would need it, but my first year ended up being profitable and I didn’t need to use any of the money that I thought I was going to need to use to keep it afloat.

Jonathan Hawkins: So when, when you started, did you, did, were you able to take clients with you or did you, did you start with none?

D. Margeaux Thomas: So I had no clients. And I was not into business development. I was just like a grinder. That was my job, like fill hours. [00:15:00] And I didn’t know how to build a firm or create business and really never developed that in the firm whatsoever. And there was one client that I was working with on a very big case that was going to go to trial a few months after I left and. When I left, they said, we want to continue to work with you and the firm that you’re leaving. And the firm that I was leaving was planning to replace me with another associate. And the owner of that business said, I don’t want you to do that. And I didn’t know he was going to do that. I mean, I left, I gave my notice and left before he made that decision. But I mean, that made my, my whole year because I was still billing the rates that I was billing at the firm. I mean, it was, it just kind of fell into place, and I wasn’t even thinking that that was a possibility. That wasn’t even on my radar. I was just like, I’m just gonna leave it all and start anew, you know?

And he said, you know, you know this case more than anybody. You know, why would I, I know what I’m doing, you know? Like, I’m not letting you walk away from this at this point and bring somebody who doesn’t know anything up to speed. We’re a few months from [00:16:00] trial. Absolutely not. You’re on the case. And I was like, thank you. In fact, I just had lunch with him a few weeks ago and was like, you know, that, changed the trajectory of my first year. That decision that she made, and it was like, it wasn’t even a question in my mind.

Jonathan Hawkins: Wow. So, okay, in your mind, you were very fortunate that that happened, but in your mind you were going to go with no clients. So what were you going to do to go get clients? What was your plan?

D. Margeaux Thomas: My plan was to tell absolutely everybody that I know what I do. And go to any, go to lunches, go to happy hours, join every networking organization I can, just pound the pavement and say, this is what I do. And if you know anybody who needs this service, when I was in BNI, I was doing all the things. I mean, my whole day was like traveling around meeting people.

And then in the evening and weekends, I would do the work that I could generate during the day. And I was just like, if you, somebody just said that, if you tell enough people what you do, you will get the work. You just gotta be telling people. Like, somebody, and it, it really does work like that. I mean, I, I [00:17:00] was looking for a, a space outside of my home or something.

Somebody said they had an open office and I went to talk to them and they were like, well, by the way, I’m being sued on blah, blah, blah, and I don’t really like my attorney. Do you think you can help? It was a huge case. I had no idea. And he was like, here it is, and transferred it to me that day, which was, insane to me.

And I was like, wow, like I wasn’t even here talking about that. I was here to, to look at an office and, you know, ended up settling the case. It went well. I mean, that was another year of funding, just kind of opportunities like that kind of just presented. I

Jonathan Hawkins: So true. You just got to get out there. You know what I tell people it’s really two principles Nobody knows who you are and those that do don’t remember you So you just got to constantly be out there and reminding people who you are what you do And like you said, you know stuff will just start coming.

That’s the other thing I believe is you know, if you put it out there The universe will respond, but you got, you got to do stuff. It’s not just going to happen. So, so it sounds like you did, you [00:18:00] did bring the one client, but you did that as well. I mean, you were out there just hitting the pavement.

Sounds like,

D. Margeaux Thomas: mean, I think those are tough years and, you know, I try not to have any regrets, but you know, I’ve made a lot of sacrifices during that time frame to. work that hard to get the phone to ring. Like, that was my life, you know what I mean? I spent a ton of time doing that.

Jonathan Hawkins: well, let’s talk about it. So, so I’ve got twins also there. 14, 14 and a half. And one of them had some very, very serious very serious issues out of, you know, in utero. Basically she was born with cancer. And so it was just, oh my gosh, it was crazy. She’s fine now. That’s good. But even without that, you know, twins, that’s a lot.

And, you know, twin toddlers. So how did you, how did you make it work? You’re, you’re, you’re grinding it during the day and the night. You got, you got twins. know, when mine were born and we were going through all that, I felt like I was like a [00:19:00] walking zombie cause I was just, I never got any sleep.

And I, frankly, there are huge chunks of that time that I just really don’t even remember cause I don’t know if I was barely awake, tell me how you are feeling, what was it like for you?

D. Margeaux Thomas: I had the same experience. Like, I feel like my, it’s like a trauma response we used to get because it was just sleep deprivation and just how difficult it was. I don’t even remember the first year of that and I had a very difficult pregnancy and was on bed rest and they were born early and they went into the NICU and it was a whole thing. And, you know, it went on for a long time and then they were doing occupational therapy to try to like, you know, keep up with where kids were at their age range because they were born so prematurely. So, I mean, it didn’t, the pregnancy was a hard part, but that was just the beginning of a lot of things that happened after that that were very difficult. And then two years later, I mean, that was barely what I was recovering from the sleep deprivation. I’m like, yeah, let’s start this firm. You know, I just, I do feel like it was the time to do it, and there was never going to be a perfect time, but I do think [00:20:00] I also sacrificed a lot of time with them, and with my husband, and with my family, in order to, to make it work, because I was working every weekend you know, I would try to work on their naps, and I would try to work when they went to sleep, but you really don’t have the energy that you have to put into your relationships when you are doing that, and now that It was a good time. You know, maybe it’s presumptuous to like compare us lawyers to like elite athletes, but in order to perform at your best, you know, you can’t be burning the candle on both ends, right? You got to get nine to 10 hours of sleep. You got to stay hydrated. You got to take care of yourself. And I was doing very little of that because I was very much like, I’ve got to make this work.

I will, you know, I will do whatever it takes to make the phone ring. And that was my sole focus at the time that, you know, a lot of other stuff, I feel like was not, I was dropping some balls and other like. that I couldn’t see it.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, you know, I mean, that’s important for people to, to realize, you know, you’ve created a successful firm and, you know, from the outside that it looks like a very impressive [00:21:00] firm, but it’s, they don’t see those early years where you are just grinding it. And often that’s what it takes. You know, sacrifice and grinding and all that.

So how did you, you know, in the early years you were grinding it out and you probably still work hard today, but how did you over the years start to structure your firm and set it up so you could, You know the new book buy back some of your time or whatever get back some of your time to focus on some of these Other things how did you do that?

And how did that evolve every time?

D. Margeaux Thomas: Well, it started with just like one assistant and I was scared to death to hire him. Cause I’m like, what if I don’t have the work? What if I can’t pay him? You know, but you know, I hired him and that was a great hire. And I was like, man, I thought back a lot of my time, like I was still doing a lot, but like that one hire made a huge difference. And I hear so many people say, I don’t have the funds to hire this person. And I certainly didn’t, but I hired them and it made up for itself. It just kind of evened out. And then, you know, I started getting rid of stuff or [00:22:00] narrowing the focus to things that I really am not good at or don’t like doing and figuring out people who love to do those things and, and surrounding myself with those people.

So, you know. Hiring a really good bookkeeper. I was doing all of that myself. I’m not great with numbers and accounting and spreadsheets. And I’ve heard you talk about spreadsheets and how you love them in other episodes. That is not my thing. I am not great at Excel. Like, I hate spreadsheets. But they love spreadsheets.

And, you know, like, let people do what they love to do. So, you know, find those people. And, you know, the operations right now. The process stuff. I don’t really like take, I don’t want to take screenshots or loom videos. Processes that we do. I understand the importance of it so that I don’t have to answer the same questions over and over and how we can, you know, drag and drop somebody into a position without having to start from scratch every time. So, you know, finding somebody who loves to do that and we have somebody who loves to do those things. So, you know, it’s just kind of been an [00:23:00] evolution of that just identifying those people and those things that I can upload and, you know, I haven’t got to. You know, I’m starting to get to the point where it’s like stuff that I’d like to do, but I know that I need to offload, and that big thing is like the practice of law, like I’m still kind of spending a lot of time working on the administration of the firm and still handling cases at the same time, which is very

Jonathan Hawkins: It is hard to litigate and have to go to court and go to a hearing deposition And spend the time you need on your firm for sure. I know it You know, it’s what you described there, you know others Call it the who, not how, you know, you, you find the people that can do those things. You don’t learn how to do it.

I tell a lot of, you know, brand new law firm owners. The first thing I recommend is go hire, outsource your bookkeeping. Just get, get that off your plate because I tried to do it. I mean, I like spreadsheets, but I hate the bookkeeping stuff and I, I tried it for the first couple of months and I was like, man, I don’t even, I spent more time trying to figure out QuickBooks, wasting more time in that [00:24:00] than, you know.

Then it would have just to pay somebody else to do it and it’s not that expensive. It really isn’t. I mean it frees up I don’t know how many hours of your time that you can then go either work clients or go get clients It’s it’s a multiplier effect and then you just go from there. So people out there that they’re they’re fresh out You know go get an outsourced bookkeeper Immediately don’t do that stuff.

So it sounds like you know, you’ve experimented or you’ve just You figured it out over the years about, you know, offloading stuff and maybe you’re at the point now, this is, this is another sort of pivotal moment, I think, in a lot of founders, law firm founders I guess evolution is, is the point where it’s offloading the actual legal work is, so where are you in that journey or have you been able to offload a lot of it or is it is it a struggle?

I know some call it, they say it’s sort of an identity. They have an identity crisis with it because they’re like, I’m the lawyer. I got to do this stuff. What’s your mindset?

D. Margeaux Thomas: I find it very difficult, [00:25:00] but not because I feel like I’m the lawyer, I need to do it, but because I think we kind of get into the, if it’s not done the way that I would do it, that it’s not right. I have to constantly tell myself, like, this is a way it could be done. And, you know, there’s no, like, really bad things that would happen if it got done this way. I would do it a different way. But, you know, you kind of have to get past that. Let it go, you know, and I’m somewhat of a professionist, so I’m like, you know, if there’s any kind of typo or anything or, you know, the organization, I could spend a lot of time rewriting somebody’s work that probably most people would consider to be fine, right? But my standard is a lot higher than that, and the client half the time would never even know, right?

But, you know, there’s just this Maybe because I came from bigger law firms. I mean, there would be so many people who review briefs. I mean, there would, there was no room for error here. You know, there were so many levels of review. And at the end of the day, our client at the banks was another lawyer who would [00:26:00] also be looking at it.

Right. So we were in federal court. There were, you know, typos or missing this or miss sites. I mean, there was no room for that. So it’s hard for me to. Review, work, and see any kind of inconsistency and not be like, you know, what about this and that and this and that and, you know, it’s hard to get out of that because that takes a lot of time because you have to be in the details of the case to even be able to make a lot of these observations.

But, you know, I think bringing in a managing attorney to look over the more junior attorneys will hopefully shift that and I won’t be the person, like, going over the cases to make sure that the proper steps are taken. At least I hope

so.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, I think for most lawyers, this is a huge problem. You know, we’ve, we’ve been good in school. We’ve probably been at the top of the class most, most of our life. Then you get in law school and then you get into these firms where it’s just, you cannot make mistakes. And we probably have. A lot of us have perfectionist tendencies, and then they get amplified through some of [00:27:00] this gauntlet that we run through, and then it’s hard to come off of that stuff.

It’s funny, you talk about all the reviews of these briefs, it’s funny, you’ve probably experienced this too I remember, you know, you, you, you’d write a brief, you’re the, you’re the junior or whatever, maybe in the mid, and then it comes back with some change, and then it goes up, and another change, and by the end of it, it gets changed back to what it was in the beginning, a lot of times, you’re like, oh my gosh, but yeah, that, that is a, you know, that is a huge challenge, I think, for, for all lawyers. And uh, are you uh, taking any steps to try to get over that? Are there any, any, methods or any advice you have for others that might be thinking about it?

D. Margeaux Thomas: You know, I think the biggest step is just allowing room for other people’s Right. Because I think it’s easy to think that whatever way I would do it is always right. And, you know, that’s not true. So, you know, just kind of just internal discussions that I have with myself when reviewing things as part of it.

And I think that’s, that’s the big part. And, you know, I was in a lot of business coaching and they said, you know, it’s, [00:28:00] it’s You’ve got to be okay with the 80%. You know, it doesn’t need to be 100%. And I remember there was this big dental business dispute going on that was very litigious that went on for years.

And I remember the, it was a husband and a wife dentist and the husband was the main dentist, right? That had all the awards, and then the wife was like the more back office person. And one day we asked him, you know, like, how good of a dentist is your wife, right? And he was like, you know, she’s not me. But no client would ever know, you know?

Like, she’s good enough that, you know, there’s no, like, big errors, like, nobody’s, like, kneeing to death, like, there’s no malpractice claims, but, you know, to me, I look at her work, and I’m like, that’s sloppy, but to the client, You know, it all works, you know, and I’m like, that’s, that’s the difference, like the client, it’s good enough, right.

And it’s hard for me to be okay with good enough, but I think that’s part of the process. Right. 80 percent and 100 percent aren’t that big of a deal at the end of the day if we can get to the same result.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, yeah, [00:29:00] I agree with you.

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Jonathan Hawkins: So as you sit here today, you know, take me through sort of a typical Day or week you know, how much time is are you spending on the business and versus in the client work?

D. Margeaux Thomas: I can say today, I woke up at 6, I had a hearing at 11. I did a little bit of work before this podcast. And I’m gonna schedule in some recruiting calls after this. And, you know, that’s my typical day. I don’t do any initial drafting anymore. Which is nice, so most of my time is spent reviewing things, so it’s quicker than it would be. And I would say most of the billable time is not mine at this point because I’m not doing any of the initial legal research. My role in any of the client meetings is more strategy [00:30:00] based, not the actual, and they all accept that. Like, all I’m coming in to do is say, I think we should move this direction or that direction.

And then. You know, I’m lucky enough to have people who can execute on that and I can just kind of review it at the day, which I like. But I think the next step is really to move out of even that.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, I saw a a very successful lawyer who’s built a big firm with others Talk about you know, sort of the journey. I think one of the questions asked was, you know What what do you attribute sort of the success to or whatever and he said? that he basically blocked off one day a week to work on the firm and he just, he kept it religiously.

I’m going to work on the firm, not in client work. It’s on the business type stuff. And he says, don’t do it on a Friday because you’ll, you’ll end up with a three day weekend every weekend. So, And so I’ve been trying to do that. And it’s just, you block it on, I block it on my calendar. I’m going to be doing, you know, stuff for the firm, not, not client work.

And [00:31:00] I’ve been doing that for a little while. We’ll see how, we’ll see how it turns out. What about you? Do you, do you have Periods where you say, I’m just going to work on the firm or is it just you fit it in wherever you can.

D. Margeaux Thomas: I wish I was better at time blocking, but I really just fit it in wherever I can. I think it’s helpful to have an accountability partner because I have a business coach that I meet with. So I’d like to show up. And not say I haven’t done anything since the last time we met, so that kind of like, gets me to do something. And you know, I really see the benefit of some of the administrative changes, you know? More so than some of the, you know, more so than the legal work. You know, the legal work is there, but like, you know, hiring a person or onboarding a person or letting go a person has, you know, a huge effect on, you know, the firm.

And those things are so important that I spend a lot more time on those than I did.

Jonathan Hawkins: So we talked about sort of what you did in the early days of your firm to go get cases. What sort of stuff do you do now for it to, to generate the work for your firm?

D. Margeaux Thomas: I think Google, like most would say, is a big part of that. [00:32:00] I think we have somehow amassed enough Google reviews that we get a fair amount of leads just, I mean it’s not even paid advertising just from people reviewing our work or seeing us online and finding us that way. And, you know, I’m not great with figuring out how Google works and how to increase that and exactly how many people are looking.

And, you know, I haven’t spent a ton of time looking at that, but, you know, I do track how many leads we bring in and how many conversions we have in a month. And I mean, it’s dramatic based upon how much, how many more reviews we’ve gotten and how that’s increased. So a lot comes from that. I do a lot of podcasts. I’m in, I’m on the board of. A couple of organizations that I’m very involved in. I’ve met a lot of people through those avenues. I don’t know, it’s weird that I feel like I’m at a point where I’ve met, I feel like Northern Virginia, Fairfax County is the biggest county in Virginia, and whenever we get a new case, I’m like, who’s on the other side?

And like, 90 percent of the time, we know who that person is, [00:33:00] because we’re in this niche, right? So I think we’ve just been doing it long enough that people associate our firm with that kind of work, which, I don’t know what day that happened or what year that happened, but it’s kind of cool to see that develop because, you know, I know I say to our clients before we even know what it is, like we’re probably going to know who that person is.

And as soon as they enter appearance, I can give you the, you know, the explanation of how that’s going to affect the trajectory.

Jonathan Hawkins: so I’m not going to ask you how old you are, so don’t, don’t. But I’ve always heard it’s, it’s, you know, the golden years of, of law, lawyer’s careers, like sort of like. 45 to 60, and it might be a little sooner, a little later, depending on, you know, when you graduate law school, whatever. But part of that is, you know, you’ve, you’ve gotten enough reps.

You’re, you’re good at being a lawyer, but also you’ve got enough a foundation of enough relationships out there that’s, that’s, that you’ve been out there for a while. You know, you’re opposing counsel, you got a reputation, but then also the people that are sort of the decision [00:34:00] makers are out there, you know, they can hire you.

And they’re sort of at the age where they can hire you and it’s, you know, I, I do feel like if you can just do these things, you got to do stuff, but if you do them long enough, and if you can just make it sort of that period, then, and you got to keep doing them, you can’t stop, but then you can just, you know, harvest all the fruits of your labor, you know, for a while, at least I don’t know if, I feel like that in my career now, I just feel like all the stuff that I did, You know, 15 years ago is sort of coming to fruition now.

I don’t know if you ever thought about that.

D. Margeaux Thomas: do. I mean, there were some really tough days at the beginning, and I feel like I’m now reaching the benefits of some very difficult decisions and move them. You know, a lot of weekends and a lot of nights and evenings and sacrifices, so I’m happy to be here doing that.

Jonathan Hawkins: So I want to, I want to shift a little bit. I know sports, I think growing up, maybe still is really important to you. You’re [00:35:00] an athlete, you’ve been a coach. And so, you know, I really. I’m fascinated by the folks that, that are really into sports and cause they’re usually high performers in business as well.

So, I don’t know, are there any lessons that maybe you’ve learned from all your time in the sports field that you’ve brought into, you know, building your law practice?

D. Margeaux Thomas: I love sports, and it has definitely been a huge part of my life since I was a very young child. Me, my brother, my dad was a prolific athlete, and I’m still competing. I’m a competitive swimmer now, and, you know, I think there are so many takeaways from sports. Like, even if you’re not great at sports, you don’t love sports, I just think there’s so many things that I’ve learned about life through sports, right? And, you know, preparation is one of them. Like, what really matters is what you do before you get to the trial or before you get to whatever the key moment is, right? You know, I, I just, it is scary to me. When people [00:36:00] just show up like, I’m just here. I’m like, what? You know, like, it’s just like, mind boggling to me, like, you know, this isn’t the day, you know, the day was two weeks ago when you were figuring out what you’re gonna do today, right? So, you know, I think that’s something I get from sports. I’m very competitive. So, you know, I just want to improve and it’s not even so much against other people. It’s just like, what can I build, you know, and how can I push myself? And, you know, that feeling of just being out of your comfort zone is something that I, Reach for, you know, I feel a little bit of comfort being in that place where you’re like coming down the rollercoaster and your stomach is like thinking, like, that’s where I want to be because that makes me know that I’m doing something for focus, right?

Progression, something that I’ve not always done. I think that just being stagnant is like scary to me. You know, just. That’s the feeling that I don’t want. Like, I just don’t want to go to work every day and come home and say that was it. Like, I want to change people’s lives. I want to build something that’s never been built. And I think I got that at a [00:37:00] young age from sports. Like, I want to change the game, you know? I don’t want to just be a good player. I want to change the game. Like, that was just kind of like something that was instilled in us from a very young age. Like, you gotta be better than the best type of thing. And I think I apply that to everything. I’m a very high key personality, so I think it all kind of weaves in there. But, you know, I apply that to the firm, you know? Like, how do we build this great culture remotely? I mean, people feel like you can’t do that, right? But we, we can do that. We just need to figure out how to do that and let’s be the best at it, right? So let’s narrow down on, drill down on what we need to do to accomplish that. So, you know, I, I think there’s so many takeaways every day from my sports life and, and so far.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I’ll tell you, if you’re a competitive swimmer I imagine that you have to learn to put up with pain and just push through. Even when you want to quit, you just gotta keep going. I, I mean, I can’t imagine I don’t know. What, what kind of events do you, do you do on the swimming? Are they long, long distance or

D. Margeaux Thomas: So I did [00:38:00] a 2. 4 mile in St. Croix in November. I did a mile in Southern Virginia the month before. And I did three other just like swim meets, so short distance races. And I’ve got a lot on the plate for this year. I’m hoping to go to Columbia in a few months and do an ocean man swim. So, you know, you know, there’s this motto, like, don’t stop when you’re tired, stop when you’re done.

Like, you know, that’s what I’m saying to myself when I’m swimming. Like, I know you’re tired, but we’re not done, right? So that’s the same motto that I applied to the firm. We’re not there. And just this whole, we’ve done it. That way all the time, let’s just continue to do it, is something that I really try to move away from as much as possible. You know, we, we gotta do it differently, and we gotta, you know, raise the bar, right?

Jonathan Hawkins: So as you self-reflect what would you say sort of are your strengths that allow you that have given you what you need to build this thing?

D. Margeaux Thomas: You know, I think about that a lot. I think that’s a really tough question. And, I think a lot of people can say I’m really good at this one thing, [00:39:00] and I’m not sure I’ve figured that out. But I say, I don’t know. Maybe I’m misphrasing this, but I’m good at identifying the people who are good at those things and putting myself near them, right? Like, I don’t feel like I’m the best Rainmaker, but I’ve met some people who I’m like, wow, you’re a hell of a Rainmaker. Like, you know, let me position myself near you because, you know, one, I’d like to pick up some of those traits, but two, you’re going to have some overflow. Like, you know, there’ll be some stuff you can’t take. And, you know, it’s the same thing with other things. Like, I know that I’m not good at this process thing, but I can figure out who is. You know, I know I’m not a great bookkeeper. I hate spreadsheets, but somebody is. So, I think it’s just finding the things for me that I’m not great at and finding the people that I can position myself with that can help me. If that is a skill, that’s something that I spend a lot of time trying to

Jonathan Hawkins: I think that is a skill. Maybe this is a good time to say, but, but I think one of your [00:40:00] sons, I think, thinks you’re like the best negotiator ever. Right? So yeah, I saw that on your website. I thought that was so cool. So for those of you out there who don’t know what I’m talking about, that on your website I’ll call it like a web comic.

It’s like you as a superhero and you’re called the negotiator. Did your son do that?

D. Margeaux Thomas: Yes, my son made a comic, and I put it on the website and it made his day, but it surprised me how many clients come to consult and are like, I read that comic, and that’s so cool. And, you know, I just think it adds a little bit of you know, just comedy to my day. A very, kind of, let’s say, just atmosphere, which can be very stressful, so I think it’s good to have that come through.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. So what do your, what do your kids think about? You and, and being a lawyer, do they, do they talk about it at all? Do they have any thoughts?

D. Margeaux Thomas: I’m not sure they want to be lawyers. I hope that was. But you know, I, I think, honestly, I think they would like more time. I still spend a lot of time in the firm. [00:41:00] And I think they wonder, like, how many people do you have to add until you’re just, like, free, you know, in their world. And I certainly don’t know what that number is, but they asked me that and I’m like, you know, When do you get to the point where you don’t need to come to work at all?

Like, you know, and i’m like, I don’t know the answer but i’m working towards that one day. So,

Jonathan Hawkins: What one day

is funny. My, my twins when they were younger, they would just hear that, you know, I’m a lawyer, I’m a lawyer, I’m a lawyer. And it took them a while. And finally, one day they said, I always thought you said you’re a liar. Not, not, I guess it was my Southern accent. I don’t know. No, there might be people out there that would call all lawyers that, but yeah, I thought that was, that was pretty funny.

So yeah, so, here’s another question. So for those out there you know, that are thinking about it or maybe have started their firm you know, always like to ask I guess sort of, you know, lessons maybe that, that you’ve learned along the way, maybe something that you Would [00:42:00] not have done or something that maybe you would have done sooner than you ultimately did it as you look back on your law firm.

D. Margeaux Thomas: I I definitely live by the burn the boat philosophy you know, I think that you just really got to jump in with both feet And I think that a lot of successful entrepreneurs just are a little bit more able to take risk than a lot of other people. They might not necessarily be all that skilled, but they’re willing to, to push the envelope and take risks that other people aren’t willing to do. So, yeah, I’m, I wish I had burned the boat a little bit sooner, maybe. Like, I was really terrified of what That looked like, but you know, I really love it. And, you know, I don’t believe that entrepreneurship is for everybody, but if there are people out there who are really thinking about it and stuck in the back of their mind and they always feel like I should do this and I just really want to like, Hey, you know, like there is no perfect time. Like, you just gotta kind of jump out there.

Jonathan Hawkins: So, one thing that I’ve, I’ve struggled with and I know others do is self doubt. [00:43:00] So, I mean, you burned the boats, you, you took the risk, you, you’ve done it. Have you ever had to deal with self doubt along the way thinking maybe you made a mistake here or there and how do you deal with that?

D. Margeaux Thomas: All the time! I make all types of decisions where I’m like, I don’t know what the outcome of this is gonna be, but you know, and it’s not about getting it right all the time. I think it’s more about learning when to pivot. Like, when you make the wrong decision, recovering from it, right? It’s the same in sports, you know, we’re not gonna have perfect games, but if you can alter what you’re doing to like make it not so bad of a loss or, you know, That’s what it’s about, like, just not being so down that you just keep going down this negative trajectory.

Like, if there’s like a toxic person in your work environment, you know, you just can’t let that You know, get bigger and bigger and take over, right? So, I have lots of spokes out. I mean, I spend a lot of time looking in the mirror saying, I’ve got this. I can do this. Like, you know, I’m a wolf, not a sheep.

Like, you know, all types of motivational things. And, you know, I, I can embody [00:44:00] that because I tell myself. Everybody has spokes out. You know, we’re all looking in the mirror like, Can, can I pull this off? You know, type of thing.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, it’s funny you, you know, not you, but one, me, person you have this self doubt, you’re like, I’m not doing it, I’m not doing it, I’m not doing it, and then all of a sudden you stop and it’s three years later and you look back and you’re like, damn, I actually did a lot there. You’re always, I’m always caught up in the moment.

I forget sort of what happened or where I, where I came from. So you’ve talked about. Just how early on and and still it’s just law is a busy all consuming type career even if you’re not trying to build a business you add that on top and it’s just you’re just busy all the time and In addition to being busy it it can be very stressful And so what are some ways that you manage the stress part of it?

D. Margeaux Thomas: Well, swimming has certainly been my outlet. Like, I spend a lot of time in the pool, and I like it because it’s a way I can’t be on my phone. You know, it’s just me looking in a [00:45:00] mirror of myself for hours on end, especially in long swim. And I think that that’s very therapeutic for me and kind of helps me maintain balance away from my kids and the law.

I mean, it’s just kind of like my time. And, you know, it’s very difficult for me to take a day off. But it’s not very difficult for me to swim, right? I’m on a team. They expect me to be there. They need it a certain time. So for me, I kind of like a commitment or accountability is a huge piece of it. I know that about myself.

Like if I put something out there in the universe and tell somebody I’m gonna be there, I’m gonna do this, I will do it. So, you know, that’s that’s key for me, to have that sense of community and have people who are waiting for me to be there or ask if I don’t show up, where am I? So, you know, that helps me kind of maintain balance, having

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, you just said something that I’ve just never thought of so I work out every day. That’s sort of my outlet But I never swim and I always have earplugs in I’m listening music or podcasts or something And I’ve never thought about [00:46:00] when you swim you can’t you can’t have earbuds in you can’t have your phone with you You just got to do it.

I might that’s actually I may take up swimming. That’s really that’s

D. Margeaux Thomas: They actually have underwater ear pods that I

Jonathan Hawkins: no Don’t tell me that don’t tell me that

D. Margeaux Thomas: I’ve never used them, but people have them, so they figured out a way.

Jonathan Hawkins: So You know, there’s ups and downs, as we’ve talked about in owning your own firm and being an entrepreneur but as you look back, sort of, what do you feel is sort of the best thing about it in your mind?

D. Margeaux Thomas: I just, I like the ownership of it to say that, you know, to look back at where I started and to see people who have bought into the vision that I, you know, was in my mind for so long. When my staff members say, you know, I just, I like the community that we have here, like more than anything else.

Like, you know, I like the people that I work with, you know, I like the clients that we work with. You know, I feel supported. I mean, that’s huge to me. You know, that’s that’s [00:47:00] what I wanted to create, you know, an environment where people want to come to work to help people and are invested in the goal. Like that’s something I never could have imagined that I would be able to to build on my own and looking at that just makes me very, very happy at the end of the day.

Jonathan Hawkins: you’ve created a really nice firm. You’ve done a lot. You’ve sacrificed a lot. You’ve put a lot of time and sweat and energy into it. As you sit here today, what, what’s the vision for the future? 10 years out, 15 years out. What do you think you want this thing to look like?

D. Margeaux Thomas: I’d like to do a lot of what we are doing now just on a bigger scale, help more people, expand more to southern Virginia and more into Maryland, expand the staff, grow capacity. I’d like to do more subscription work. We’re just like on the very, you know, we have, we’re at the very beginning of growing that piece. Which I think has a lot of potential and I know there are people who you’ve talked to on your podcast who are very much into that. And I’d certainly like to move more in that direction. I do [00:48:00] see lots of issues with the billable hour that I’ve always felt inside was just not the best way to do it.

So, I think that’s, that’s the future of all, like, getting away from this. Terrible billable hour requirements, and I mean, we don’t have billable hour requirements, but you know, just billing people by the hour, I think In and of itself has a lot of issues, so, you know, that’s, that’s our goal.

Jonathan Hawkins: so let’s, the subscription thing. Let’s talk about that. So, I mean, you’re a basically litigation firm. I know you probably do some advisory work. How do you envision implementing a subscription service into your firm?

D. Margeaux Thomas: So, right now, we just have clients that can call, they pay a flat fee, and, you know, they just have our availability, they can call, we can ask questions, but then, depending on what their, Like, if they get sued or they need some document drafting, we convert it to a flat fee or a billable hour. But I think that there’s some way to do litigation on a subscription basis, so it doesn’t convert to a [00:49:00] billable hour or a flat rate at some point. Like, I think that there’s some way to kind of just figure out, you know, what is the likelihood of how many depositions are you likely to have, right? And how much is that going to cost us? How much time are we going to put into this? And what is a monthly amount that you could pay that would sustain this?

And we want to make long term clients, not just litigation clients, but we want to provide value through the life cycle of people’s business. And how do we do that over time without them having this up and down and up and down and unpredictability of the bill of liability? And there’s a lot of people who feel like that can’t be done in litigation and whenever you say that, people are like, no, that’s just like not possible, but, and most of the people who do it aren’t doing it in litigation, from what I find, but I think that that is the natural transition of the system.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, if you figure that out, if you figure out how to do litigation in a subscription model, You’re gonna kill it. I Tell you that cuz yeah, I do think that’s Challenging for sure. I’m not gonna say impossible because I don’t think anything’s [00:50:00] impossible But yeah, that’ll be really cool. I you know, I I’m very interested in subscription models And I do think they have I think they have a place in just about every firm and every practice You know whether it’s to the actual case litigation part I don’t know, but I think you can have a book of clients that are on some sort of subscription type model and then call you and hopefully avoid litigation.

So, so yeah, I think, I really think that is the wave of the future. So, well, cool. So real quick if I’m a lawyer out there and I’m thinking about starting a firm, what is the top piece of advice you’d tell me?

D. Margeaux Thomas: Just do it.

Jonathan Hawkins: What’d you say? Don’t do it?

D. Margeaux Thomas: I said just

do it.

Jonathan Hawkins: just do it.

D. Margeaux Thomas: Just start.

I think we can just get bogged down in a lot of details. But, you know, it can stop us from making decisions. And I found that some of the most successful entrepreneurs that I deal with [00:51:00] Have a very unique way of making decisions, you know, they make very high level decisions and they can do so with a lot less information than perhaps others. And, you know, I think that as lawyers, we’re just like programmed the opposite way. We just need all this information and like every contingency and that is just like, you know, can stop you in your tracks from making decisions that would be very good for you.

Jonathan Hawkins: I agree with that. Well, Margo, this has been real fun. Thank you for coming on. It’s been it’s been fun getting to know you and your journey there. For anybody out there that wants to get in touch with you or wants to find you, what’s the best way?

D. Margeaux Thomas: So feel free to reach out via email. You can reach us at Team Thomas Law plc or website Thomas Law plc. We’re all over LinkedIn, so I’d love to connect with anybody there. We post a lot of content on there and happy to speak to anybody who’s interested in starting a firm. I, I love entrepreneurship, so I’m a huge promoter of it.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Well, cool. Well, again, thank you for coming on. It’s been fun.

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