Jonathan Hawkins: [00:00:00] How did you start to get cases from the beginning? How were you confident that you’re like, okay, I can do this. You could clearly, you could do the work, but you gotta get the cases. So how were you confident on that?

 

Andrew Kryder: You know, sometimes like, we’ll joke, you know, we’re talking about marketing and I’ll say marketing is just another word for hustle. You gotta hustle. And when I first started my firm, that’s what I tried to do. I tried to bring the work ethic through the office door every single day and hustle.

 

And so when you’re in a situation where you’re starting your own firm, you’ve gotta look around and say, who are my contacts? You know, and you also gotta look at what the need is, right? You know, like where are cases that I can get those cases. So for me it was, you know, I was at the courthouse every day.

 

I would be shoulder to shoulder with in the elevator with other plaintiff’s attorneys. And you start talking and developing relationships. This is how I grew my business. You know, you start talking to someone and they’re growing up, they start to become more and more [00:01:00] selective. And those cases that maybe are at the bottom of the food chain, they’re willing to refer out at that point.

 

And for me anyway, that was sort of how I started to grow word of mouth referrals from other attorneys by taking on, you know, their challenging cases if need be. And turning them into cases.

 

And that was part of the hustle that you gotta do. I mean, that’s part of what this business is all about. It’s the work ethic, it’s the hustle. It’s the never give up kind of mentality. And you gotta learn how to turn nothing into something. And so it’s something that we still joke about today.

 

Welcome to the Founding Partner Podcast. Join your host, Jonathan Hawkins, as we explore the fascinating stories of successful law firm founders. We’ll uncover their beginnings, triumph over challenges, and practice growth. Whether you aspire to launch your own firm, have an entrepreneurial spirit, or are just curious about the legal business, you’re in [00:02:00] the right place.

 

Let’s dive in.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: Welcome to Founding Partner podcast. I’m your host, Jonathan Hawkins. This is a podcast where I get to interview law firm founders. And learn about their journeys and, hopefully learn from the lessons they’ve learned along the way. So, excited to have this week’s guest and it’s Andrew Kryder of the Kryder Law Group in Chicago.

 

He is a personal injury lawyer and, wanna dive in and talk about his journey and what his firm is up to and, and where it’s going. So, Andrew, thanks for coming on.

 

Andrew Kryder: My pleasure. My pleasure. I’m excited to be here, excited to have this conversation, and I honestly think it’s a great sort of format, you know, for people to talk about their experiences, what they’ve gone through when they started their firm, and, you know, as many people that I talk to at conferences.

 

It’s always so amazing to hear everyone’s individual story because truly [00:03:00] everybody comes at this a little bit differently and it’s always exciting to hear stories when I’m at conferences, and so I’m just really happy to be here. Thank you, Jonathan. 

 

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, that’s one of the reasons why I love this format, because I get to learn from everybody. And like you said, everybody’s got sort of a different path and have done it slightly differently. I mean, a lot of people that are not lawyers say, Hey, you’re just a lawyer. You’re all the same. Well, no, it’s not that way. So, why don’t you tell us, so tell us about your firm, the makeup. Let’s talk, you know, we’ll talk stats first. So how many attorneys, how long you’ve been in business, that kind of thing.

 

Andrew Kryder: Sure, sure. So in 2002, I started the firm and at that time it was called the Law Offices of Andrew Kryder and Associates, even though there weren’t any associates, it was just me and a part-time secretary that I shared with another lawyer that I shared office space with. And you know, over time we’ve grown into a five lawyer firm with 20 staff members, several that are in [00:04:00] Monterey, Mexico. We focus on personal injury. We’re right here in Chicago, Illinois downtown, you know, a stone’s throw. I can see out the window from the courthouse if anybody’s familiar with it. I can see the Mayor’s office across the street as well in the Daily Center, which is the courthouse just behind it.

 

So we focus on personal injury, like I think I’ve mentioned, and over time. We’ve just been very, very I think blessed is the way to put it to grow into a firm that I’m very, very proud of right now.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: All right, so, you used the overseas staffing type situation. I use that. Lots of attorneys use that now. I do have to ask since timestamp, you know, over the last few days in Mexico, it’s gone crazy. Have you seen anything with your staff that’s there?

 

Andrew Kryder: We have actually I didn’t even think about that when I brought it up. I was just sort of generally describing the makeup of our staff and attorneys and yeah, we. We’ve, we’ve had several notify us, like things are [00:05:00] just not the same. There is violence in the street. I’m sorry if I don’t respond to emails or, or pages directly.

 

But we’re dealing with kind of a meltdown. It’s a little unnerving actually. And so, you know, certainly we hope everything goes well there.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, that’s crazy. It’s just, I have never traveled to Mexico. I know lots of people that go to the resorts and all this. Actually, my colleague down the hall was there I think maybe three weeks ago. So he got out just in time.

 

Andrew Kryder: Just in time. That’s right. Yeah. 

 

Jonathan Hawkins: But it is crazy. I mean, you know, this is just one of the factors of running a firm. It’s, there’s always some, there’s always something, always something happening. I had somebody call me earlier, they had some weird emergency I won’t go into, but there’s just, you know, the, the joys of owning a, a business and a law firm, there’s always some new little wrinkle that you gotta deal with. So you’ve been doing it since 2002.

 

So let’s go back. So before you started your firm, what were you doing?

 

Andrew Kryder: So I was, after [00:06:00] graduating law school in 1998 it was probably a really dire time for the legal market. There were a ton of lawyers coming outta law school, not a lot of jobs. I found a job with a personal injury attorney because that was what was available. And I worked for him for a few years. And the great thing about it was that there was just so much exposure to so many different cases and I was thrown into things probably I shouldn’t have been thrown into as a young attorney, but it allowed you the exposure to things that you wouldn’t otherwise see.

 

And I would always joke with my friends, I feel like I’ve practiced law and dog years, you know, for every one that they practiced, I felt like I had the experience of seven years simply because on day one. I was over at the courthouse in week one. I was preparing for a trial. Depositions were daily arbitrations were weekly trial pretty, pretty much every week, so, you know, it was learn or it’s [00:07:00] going to be a, a really tough, tough time.

 

But so I started out with a, basically a solo practitioner and worked my way from there.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: So let’s, So back to your firm. So personal injury firm, lots of different business models within the personal injury space you know, high volume, low volume trial firm you know, all all the stuff. Well, how would you describe your practice?

 

Andrew Kryder: I think it’s changed over time. So, when that gentleman I was working for he got sick and this was about two years after I had been working for him, I found myself running his law practice. And when he finally came back, I said to myself, you know, I think this is something that I could do myself.

 

And I found myself in a position where he was willing to give me part of his cases, and then I was able to make contacts with other law firms and start receiving referrals from them. And so I would say early on we were probably what I’ll characterize as a volume firm. We were running a lot of cases, [00:08:00] mostly motor vehicle premises and those types of things.

 

I would say that shifted probably over the last 7 to 10 years, just the way the dynamic of the personal injury world has changed. We’ve had to change with it. And so what we have done is positioned ourselves more as a firm that originates their own cases versus getting those cases referred in and it’s been a great transformation for us and I’m very pleased with how that’s developed over time.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: So how how do you originate your cases? Is it referral based, former clients, other attorneys? Do you digital mass advertising?

 

Andrew Kryder: So we had a really solid foundation of other law firms referring US cases, and over time what we decided was. We want to be originating those cases. We want to be representing those clients on day one rather than them referred in at some point after that. And so we made an effort. We’ve kept our referral partners wherever it’s appropriate.

 

We love those [00:09:00] relationships, they’re fantastic. But what we did was we entered the digital space, I’ll call it. We focused on SEO efforts, and I know that’s a changing and evolving world right now. But that’s what we originally focused on, largely because we could, we didn’t have an ad budget where we could go, you know, put billboards all up and down the expressway or run TV ads all day and night.

 

So we focused on what we could do in the space that we could do it, and for us. That was SEO where we could inform people of the law, inform people of what options they had if they were in an injury. Answer a lot of questions that the general public has questions about, what do I do if I’m hurt? It?

 

It’s not an obvious answer, and every client’s answer is a little bit different. And so, Jonathan, I’ll tell you, I mean, it’s what we talk about here. It’s like every case in our office. It starts with a conversation. That’s what we say. I’m, we literally say that every day. Every case starts with a conversation because [00:10:00] every client is just a little bit different.

 

There’s motor vehicle accidents. They can seem like they’re the same, but they’re not. Everybody’s coming at it a little bit differently. They have a different background. The accident might have caused a serious injury, maybe a minor injury, but the disruption to their life is very, very different depending on who you’re talking to and the circumstances that they come from.

 

So for us, that content, the SEO content, is what we focused on trying to answer those questions and really, you know, hone in on what is, what’s the problem that the client is facing. And that’s where a lot of our SEO content is designed to answer and fill that space.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: So you alluded to it a little bit how the SEO space is changing a little bit. I assume you’re, you’re talking about AI and the AI search, which we’re all starting to see, I mean, we all do it now, probably. Are you starting to see the, well, number one, I guess, how is it changing and how is it maybe changing your approach and are you starting to see the lead attribution [00:11:00] be, you know, 

 

Andrew Kryder: Just a little. Not a lot. We probably signed our first case that we attribute to chat three, four months ago. And it’s, it’s a small fraction at this point for me. I don’t know whether I’m right or not. I mean, if you ask 10 lawyers their opinion, you’ll get 20 different opinions. 10 lawyers, their opinion.

 

You’ll strike that, your Honor. If you ask 10 lawyers what their opinion is, you’ll get 20 different answers. And so the same thing is true for SEO. In my view, I’m happy that we started with the SEO because I do think that that’s sort of foundational for the AI searches. Not totally, there’s a difference.

 

There definitely is a difference in terms of what AI is looking at and putting emphasis on. But a good SEO foundation, I still believe has pretty good relevance for AI searches. There’s other dynamics that we’re looking at I don’t have the answer to, but I’m seeing like [00:12:00] verdict results might be something that influences the AI search.

 

Reddit and some of these social listings I think have an influence how much, I don’t know. But we are certainly seeing that emerging sort of new search with the ai.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: It’ll be interesting to see how. This evolves and play out, plays out over the years. So tell me about Chicago. You know, I’m here in Atlanta, which is my understanding, a top three or a top five competitive market in the country for personal injury type practices. What’s Chicago like?

 

Andrew Kryder: You, you know, I, I’ve never practiced in any of those other states, but, or cities. But I think it is very competitive. We have, you know, name brand attorneys that most people would hear about here. So, you know, I do consider it a, a pretty competitive environment with some heavy advertisers. And, and it’s a challenge to try to keep up with them.

 

You know, I, those firms have many, many attorneys. [00:13:00] I still consider us a, a small, maybe a medium sized firm by some, by some measures. So competing with those larger firms is always a challenge. And, you know, a lot of times I think really good communication and really good customer service, it goes a long way.

 

I know it doesn’t sound flashy or really dynamic like, oh yeah, let’s, let’s provide better service. It’s, it’s not a novel idea, but I really do think that it is something that we try to focus on. And I know the clients that we have really appreciate. And that level of appreciation, just for simple respect, simple communication that word of mouth is many times more precious than an ad that I can run anywhere.

 

So I’ll take that word of mouth over a TV ad, pretty much every dog on day of the week.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: Absolutely. You know, your current and former client base, it’s your sales force, for lack of a better word. So treat ’em right, stay in touch with ’em, you know, [00:14:00] really work that list.

 

Andrew Kryder: Yeah. You know, I mean, we were talking about different marketing ideas and what we focus on and you know, I skipped over some of the very basic things that we do. ’cause it’s just, it’s just not that cool to talk about on TV or, or on a podcast. But. Making phone calls, wishing people happy birthday, a simple newsletter.

 

These are things that they work, they work because you know, clients want to have that relationship with their attorney. We try to stay in contact with our clients wherever we can, whenever we can. Newsletters are great ideas and, and birthday cards just to show appreciation for, for being a client of ours.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, the birthday thing, I have gone through stages where I actually send cards. Right now, I’m not very good at it. I need to get better at that, but I certainly, if I have it and I have their, phone number, I will text them happy birthday that morning. They’re gonna hear from me. One of the first people they hear from that morning is gonna be from me.

 

And I think about it, you know, we’re older. [00:15:00] I’ll say that. How many. Birthday wishes do you get nowadays? Yeah. It’s not like when you’re a kid where everybody’s like, ah, where now it’s, it, maybe it’s, maybe it’s your spouse, maybe your kids remember. So it, it is, it breaks through the noise. I think it really does. If somebody gets a birthday card from you nowadays as an adult. 

 

Andrew Kryder: I’ll say I love getting them and you know, here’s the reality. I’ve got teenage daughters. So they get put to work stuff in birthday cards every month. And I don’t know that they love sending birthday wishes, but I certainly like getting them and I’m, I love having my kids do it. 

 

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, it’s good training. You’re training them for when they get older. That’s a good idea there. 

 

Andrew Kryder: Absolutely. 

 

Jonathan Hawkins: a idea.

 

Andrew Kryder: Yeah. 

 

Jonathan Hawkins: Alright, so let’s Go back. Go back. Okay. So you you went out, you you were with that, attorney. You, He got sick, whatever you left, he gave you some cases to, I guess do a feast split on or whatever. Other than that, you know. How did you start to get cases from the beginning? how were you confident that you’re like, okay, I can do this. You could clearly, you could do the [00:16:00] work, but you gotta get the cases. So how how were you confident on that?

 

Andrew Kryder: You know, sometimes like, we’ll joke, you know, we’re talking about marketing and I’ll say marketing is just another word for hustle. You gotta hustle. And when I first started my firm, that’s what I tried to do. I tried to bring the work ethic through the office door every single day and hustle.

 

And so when you’re in a situation where you’re starting your own firm, you’ve gotta look around and say, who are my contacts? You know, and you also gotta look at what the need is, right? You know, like where are cases that I can get those cases. So for me it was, you know, I was at the courthouse every day.

 

I would be shoulder to shoulder with in the elevator with other plaintiff’s attorneys. And you start talking and developing relationships. This is how I grew my business. You know, you start talking to someone and they’re growing up, they start to become more and more selective. And those cases that maybe are at the bottom of the food chain, they’re willing to refer out at that point.

 

And for [00:17:00] me anyway, that was sort of how I started to grow word of mouth referrals from other attorneys by taking on, you know, their challenging cases if need be. And turning them into cases. You know, the other thing we always joke about is the guy I work for, I won’t name his name, but I always joke that I graduated from the school of turning nothing into something.

 

And that was part of the hustle that you gotta do. I mean, that’s part of what this business is all about. It’s the work ethic, it’s the hustle. It’s the never give up kind of mentality. And you gotta learn how to turn nothing into something. And so it’s something that we still joke about today.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: So the first big decision when you’re starting a law firm is to actually start it. And so the a second. Big milestone that every, I think every law firm owner eventually sort of hits the fork in the road is, do I hire my first employee? And so tell me about when, you know, you started it, how soon after was it that you [00:18:00] hired your first employee and what was it, paralegal, case manager or attorney. How did you go?

 

Andrew Kryder: So I started out as just me and I shared a secretary with another attorney in my space. We were kind of an office suite of solo practitioners. You know, and for me, starting my own practice was kind of an easy decision. You know, I, I had training wheels where I was running. The attorney’s firm that I worked for, so I had confidence that I could do it, and I looked around and, you know, I said to myself, I sure can’t make any less.

 

So, so the risk for me was probably very different than it is for someone who wants to start their practice, you know, 10, 15 years into their legal career. For me, I was very, very young and I literally had nothing to lose and, and it, so it was an easy decision. Gratefully, and thankfully it worked out literally within six months.

 

The part-time secretary was a full-time secretary. And then within a year I was hiring my first attorney, and that attorney’s still with me today. [00:19:00] So, you know, slowly but surely I was probably very fortunate to hire some very good people at the very beginning and they were a tremendous support and helped kind of grow and keep things together.

 

Because a lot of people know, depending on where you’re coming from, it’s not easy. Those first few years it’s really, really, really hard and, you know, cashflow can be an issue and, you know, everything is riding on the next case kind of thing. So, I was very fortunate in that respect. 

 

Jonathan Hawkins: So, yeah. So speaking of the cash flow, so I talked to a lot of attorneys you probably have too. Over the years, they get really, it’s a huge decision in their mind whether to hire somebody or not, and I can’t afford. To hire this person and they’re then they just push it off, push it off, and they just keep doing it all themselves.

 

’cause they feel like they don’t have the cash flow, especially a PI practice where everything’s contingent and it may be 6, 12, 18 months plus before you get your, your fee in. Was that an issue for [00:20:00] you mentally or you just, things were great and you just said, Hey, doesn’t matter, I need it. I’m getting a person.

 

Andrew Kryder: you know, for me, I don’t think I sat there ringing my hands about that. I know it, it definitely is an issue. But for me, it was, there were cases coming in and I knew I couldn’t do it myself. You know, there’s only so far you can push a firm just through your own grit and determination. At some point, you need help.

 

And for me I guess I probably was lucky in the sense that the cases were coming in, so I knew eventually they would turn over. So the decision to hire an attorney for me anyway, was a pretty easy one.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: And so now you’ve got, is it five counting you or five in addition to you?

 

Andrew Kryder: Five counting

 

Jonathan Hawkins: So you’ve got four. How often or how do you know when to hire the next one? What kind of metrics are you looking at to know it’s time?

 

Andrew Kryder: That’s a great question because I feel like that answer is different depending on the types of cases that you’re handling. You know, I know workers’ compensation attorneys here [00:21:00] in the. And each attorney’s handling hundreds of cases. I also know another PI firm, and they’re handling what I’ll call high end personal injury, and they may only have 15 cases that each attorney’s handling. You might have a motor vehicle based law firm and they’re doing heavy litigation, and they’ve probably got somewhere between 75 to 150 files, just depending on if they’re in muni or law, meaning small or big. And then you’ve got other people who have a mix where they’re doing a little bit of litigation, a little bit of claims, and so it’s a blend.

 

For me, I would love to know the answer to that question. And after 20 some years, I still don’t it’s always kind of looking through your filing cabinet, seeing what you’re working on. A lot of it is feedback though, from your, your lawyers, right? That they’ll tell you. Hey, I don’t have the time to focus in on certain things.

 

I need to be able to focus. Let’s get someone else in to help out. So I’ve always tried to be very receptive to those [00:22:00] conversations. I’ve been there. I’ve, I’ve been in a position where I’ve felt overworked and not be able to give attention to certain files. So I know that feeling and I’ve always tried to have an open ear when those conversations might come up.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: It is a, and I’m speaking for myself a little bit here too. It’s a weird balance because just the nature of the law practice. You know, if everything could hit all at once and you’re super busy and then two weeks later they all settled, you have nothing to do. So it’s just up and down and up and down.

 

And so you, it’s hard to know is this just a busy time or is the trend line going up? And so that’s part of the equation. But the other part too, for me at least I have sort of found when, if you hire, when you’re overwhelmed. If you wait till you’re overwhelmed and you hire the chances of making a bad decision in the hire, goes up, goes up substantially ’cause you, because you’re just rushed and you’re like, I don’t care who, it’s just get in here versus, all right, we’re gonna sort of, maybe we see it coming and we can get ahead of it.

 

We’re gonna be a little more [00:23:00] thoughtful, interview more people, maybe more, you know, a longer interview process, whatever. How do you approach that part of it?

 

Andrew Kryder: it’s so funny you bring that up, you know, because I think if anybody’s out there watching this. And you’ve been a firm that’s grown over time. I know every single one of you have hired a person that could basically fog up a mirror during an interview, and if they, if they could do that, they were hired, they met the qualifications that day.

 

I’ve done it myself, so I’m not excluding myself from that. You’re right, Jonathan. I mean, when you start to hire and scramble because you’ve, you’ve delayed things a little too long. That’s usually when you’re making a decision that you later regret. And it is something that we’ve tried to do a much better job of.

 

I still don’t have the answer to Each person can handle this many cases, but we have tried to start growing into our staff. And what I mean by that is rather than wait until we [00:24:00] absolutely need another person and everyone’s just pulling their hair out and it, it is just, it’s craziness. We’ve said to ourselves, well are, are we at like 60 to 70% capacity?

 

And if we’re still on a growth trajectory, then we say, okay, well let’s think about filling in a person where we’re going to need them next. And it really does allow everyone to kind of keep that quality of service, which we are so focused on right now while maintaining sanity, doing a high level of work.

 

But I will tell you, and I am sure everyone watching this will agree. Balancing the staffing is one of the biggest challenges that I think law firms face. It’s getting it right because you always feel like maybe you’re a little understaffed, maybe a little overstaffed hitting that sweet spot. Boy, if you could perfect that. You are ahead of the game. Let me tell you. 

 

Jonathan Hawkins: I am with you and I, it is an art, not a science, and I feel like ideally any, any [00:25:00] firm or any organization would have, I call it slack. You want a little bit of slack. You don’t want everybody running it a hundred plus percent, all the, it’s like a car. If you’re going, you know. Throttle all the way down forever, you’re going to, the engine’s gonna explode. So you need to be able to pull back. But, ‘ cause again, like let’s say you had five, all five of your attorneys have a trial at the same time. Your office is gonna be a madhouse, I would imagine. You can’t do that all the time, and it’s, but it may happen every now and then. And you gotta be ready for it. So you need that slack to be able to fill it. But again, art, not a science. I don’t know how, I don’t know if anybody can figure out. They’re gonna make a lot of money there.

 

Andrew Kryder: I think you’re right. I think you’re definitely right. Yeah.

 

Real quick, if you haven’t gotten a copy yet, please check out my book, the Law Firm Lifecycle. It’s written for law firm owners and those who plan to be owners. In the book, I discuss various issues that come up as a law firm progresses through the stages of its growth from just before starting a firm to when it comes to an end.

 

The law firm lifecycle is available on Amazon. [00:26:00] Now, back to the show.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: So one more question about hiring. This is another question that comes up a lot people ask me about. And it’s, you know, how do you find. The good people where do you find them? And don’t gimme your secrets if you’re, you know, I’m not asking for specifics, but generally speaking, you know, how do you find the people when you need ’em?

 

Andrew Kryder: You know, I think we’ve had pretty good success with your standard. Job boards indeed is where we’ll post quite a bit. I know some folks will say LinkedIn is a great place. I’ve never tried that, but I’ve heard people have tremendous success there. It’s funny, you know, this was probably 15 years ago.

 

We would, we would use Craigslist and one of the best people that I hired, she’s still here. I found her on Craigslist. I know that sounds crazy. So at the end of the day, there, there is a randomness to this, I think when you’re interviewing. I can tell you we’ve tried to almost create a test for different [00:27:00] positions.

 

So just to give you an example we have a position here called a, a lien adjudicator, someone who negotiates medical bills when the case settles. And there’s a formula in Illinois. So we basically put together a math test for some people who are applying for that position so that we know that they have at least the raw mathematical skills to put together a proposal to the different providers.

 

And we have a much better idea if that person’s gonna be set up for success for that particular role. You know, a different role on intake where a person has to be able to show empathy. And just, you know, lend that ear where they’re really listening to what happened. We’ve got a different test for that.

 

And that test, you know, kind of, it’s, it’s a scoring test where we think, well, does the person sort of combine empathy and the ability of salesmanship, I guess, for that role. So for us, that’s what we’ve done. But, you know, finding the right people for the right job, that’s [00:28:00] another one of those things where if you figure that one out, you’ll be. You’ll be a millionaire for sure.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I do like the testing element. I think that that’s smart. And it’ll weed out at least the ones that are just completely not qualified. So that’s, that’s a smart approach.

 

Andrew Kryder: I think so. You know, I mean, let’s face it, we’ve all been to an interview. We’ve all done an interview. You’re, you’re selling yourself. Your interview is the best day that you’re going to have with that person. You really have to get past that pleasantries and so forth, and dig down. Into what does this person really know?

 

What is their experience? Is their resume accurate or has it just been totally embellished? And sometimes when you’re talking with people and they say, oh yeah, I’ve got a ton of experience in litigation and working claims, you start to ask ’em like, well, how many files did you handle? 10. You know, how many sets of interrogatories did you actually answer? Two, did you do ’em by yourself? No. With the help of the senior paralegal. And all of a sudden, this person’s resume is pretty distant to [00:29:00] what reality actually is. So having a test to kind of like hone in on some of those core skills, it’s been helpful for us anyway.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: So your firm has grown a lot over the years and it’s, you said it’s sort of changed as well. I wanna dive in a little bit about how your role in the firm. How has it evolved over time? You know, when you started out, you said you were doing everything, you were trying cases. What’s your role in the firm now?

 

Andrew Kryder: Yeah, so when it started out, I was in court every day, depths every week, ARBs every week, trial just coming up all the time. And over time when we started to shift, and this is probably about a seven year period of time where I wanted to focus more on trying to originate cases through marketing and relationships, my role started to come back a lot more from the day-to-day operations of working cases to more of a focus on, you know, systems, making sure that we have the proper systems in place so [00:30:00] that we can be providing a really high level of service. Clients are happy.

 

And then creating frameworks, right? Because if you create these frameworks, the good people that you hire have parameters to work in. And for us anyway, it just seems like it’s a much better recipe for success. So my role has been more about creating systems, perfecting those systems.

 

I shouldn’t use perfection because it’s just never gonna happen. We’ll say refining. Those processes trying to get better and better each day. And it’s a challenge. I love doing it. And that’s where my focus is right now.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: Let’s dive into that a little bit because I’m with you and I hear you. I try to do that as well, but it’s not always easy ’cause you just, you keep getting sucked back in to the stuff, so,

 

Andrew Kryder: So I like the Godfather. Right. You thought you were out and then they sucked you back in, 

 

Jonathan Hawkins: So how were you able to do it? How do you stay disciplined? How do you [00:31:00] actually do it? Did you have coaches that held you accountable? How did you just hold yourself accountable? How do you, how do you actually do that?

 

Andrew Kryder: it’s little by little. It really is. You know, like I said it before when we were talking, it’s like you can only move the needle so far just through grit and determination. I eventually. You have to bring on additional people to help you with these things because there’s just too much to do. And so over time, little by little started out it was me and, and I assume that many small firms, it is the owner, right?

 

They have the biggest interest in making sure that everything succeeds. So they have their hands in every little thing. Over time, when you start to grow, you have to start to delegate some of those tasks. And it’s hard. I didn’t like doing it. I’ve gotten better at it. About six months ago, we brought on a director of operations someone who can really help us execute because look, everyone who runs their own [00:32:00] business or a law firm, they know where they want to be.

 

They have a vision. It’s about execution. That’s the key. You know, it’s like I, I look back on some of the notes that I would take to myself, you know, plans and stuff like that, and goals that I had. And I laugh to myself because year after year, they were the same goal every single year. It’s just that I never accomplished any of them.

 

And so you really have to look at that and say, okay, I need help driving and executing these plans if we’re gonna reach those goals. And so for us, that’s what we did. I’ve been really happy with the decision. And, and that probably goes back to hiring the right person to help you do that. Some of the other parts of the conversation that we’re having today, having the right person in the right role is key to everything. It really is.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: So I wanna talk about your director of operations, but before we get there, I wanna talk about the mindset. So we talked a little bit about, you know, the little by little, the actual, the actions you take, but a lot of it, talking to a lot of lawyers, and myself included, you know, we [00:33:00] can do it all, we can do it all the right way.

 

It’s hard to let go of those things. So how did you get over the mindset part of it?

 

Andrew Kryder: So. I don’t know who’s, I can’t take credit for this but it hit me like a ton of bricks when I heard it. The moment that you are complaining to your wife or significant other about something at work is probably the same moment that you should be finding someone to help you with that problem. And when I heard that, I was like, that is so true.

 

So for me. You know, like going home and, you know, my wife is like, I don’t wanna hear more about this garbage. You know, you go, go figure it out. So for me, that, that was like my litmus test. Okay, I know I need help with this problem ’cause my wife’s tired of hearing about it. So we would try to find someone to help with that particular issue.

 

I think everybody already knows it. I really do. You know, the desire. For law firm owners who’ve started their own businesses there, they wanna do everything. They know that they’re, they’re capable and they are. But the reality [00:34:00] is, if you want to try to grow, you need help doing it. And the execution is the biggest part of making sure that you’re pushing in that right direction.

 

So for me, the mindset was, I need help doing it. And until I get that. I’m gonna be right here looking at those same goals that I wrote down last year and didn’t get ’em this year. So for me, it was easy.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: All right, so let’s get director of operations. So, a lot of people out here might be thinking, you know, how do I know it’s time to hire a director? Right? Is it, is it a revenue level? Is it a, a size of staff level? What led you to the point where you’re like, okay, now’s the time to hire Director of operations?

 

Andrew Kryder: So early in our conversation we’re talking about, you know, that slack, that slack, we get it right? It’s so hard with the staffing and stuff, but when I was at 15 people, I was losing my mind with HR and everything else. And so I started to put it into motion. Then when I [00:35:00] said to myself, okay. I’ve defined what my one year, three year, five year, and 10 year plan is, and I’ve sketched out a basic framework on how to accomplish that. I need someone to help me execute that plan. And you know, it’s a little bit of a leap of faith because you are bringing on a high level person and you’re gonna have to budget that into your payroll. But you’re also saying to yourself, this helps. This assistance, this execution is going to also increase my revenue of my firm. It’s going to increase the number of cases that I hope to get. It’s going to better the process that I have already started and want to keep refining each and every day. So don’t even look at it from an expense perspective. Look at it in terms of what it’s going to do to help you. Obtain your goals, whatever they might be.

 

Maybe it’s more cases, maybe it’s better cases. Maybe it’s turning your practice [00:36:00] over to somebody in five years. Whatever it is, it’s just about execution. That’s what it was for me anyway.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: So you’ve dropped some, I’ll call it jargon or some, some language that sounds to me sort of like EOS or something like that. Or are you using the EOS system or something like it?

 

Andrew Kryder: I am not. I am not using it like by the book, but I’ve read through those things. There’s a lot of things that I agree with, but I don’t know that it’s practical to apply a rigid EOS system to every single firm. I’m not a one size fits all kind of guy. I think you really have to look at the good parts of a lot of different things and say, how can I put that into my practice to improve it, refine it, you know, refine it, make it better.

 

So for me, the director of operations was, was having that person who could help me execute. I’ve got an idea of what needs to be done. I’ve got the issues that we need to conquer. I’ve got the plan on what I wanna do to try [00:37:00] to conquer it. It’s just having that execution, that person to help drive that forward, was the difference maker for me.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: And I am with you, I think, and I, I have not formally done EOS. I’ve read the book probably three or four times. I’ve, I’ve incorporated elements of it. I’ve not hired an outside implementer. I have plenty of friends and people that I know that have, and they swear by it. But I agree with you. I think a strict, rigid application of the EOS system into.

 

A law firm and every law firm is not gonna work. I think there are elements that would will work, and I think there are pieces of it that probably should be shed. So I agree with that sure.

 

Andrew Kryder: Yeah, I agree. I mean, everybody comes at it from a different perspective, you know, and I think it’s great. You, you, you cannibalize the parts that you like and you can use and, and create wins with. And maybe you’ll adopt the rest of it later on. Use what you can right now. And keep the rest of it in your back pocket for a later day [00:38:00] maybe.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: So other than things we’ve other talked already talked about, are there any frameworks or principles that you think have really helped you grow your firm?

 

Andrew Kryder: You know, for me, it’s always been about work ethic and making sure that we are doing everything we can. And it’s sort of what I preach to everybody who’s here, you know, and my kids for that matter. You know, I, I’ll, I’ll tell them literally every chance that I get, that if you just follow through on things, if you just work a little bit harder, you will probably end up being more successful than most. Not all, there’s a degree of luck involved in everything but. If you’re putting in the work, putting in the effort, it seems to pay off and follow through is a key part of that. So for me, those are sort of the practices that I try to put into play. It’s what I talk to the attorneys about. I know the attorneys talk to the staff about that, and I want that to sort of trickle down into a better [00:39:00] client experience for everyone in our law firm.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: So let’s talk about the, this is what I want to focus on now, to the extent you’re willing to share. Anybody that’s been out there building a firm. They know it’s not easy. And the second you think you’ve figured it out, life’s gonna throw something at you every single time. I got it figured out.

 

Then boom, you’re like, oh, wow, this is something new. So what sorts of challenges have you encountered over the years that, that you’ve had to overcome? And maybe frame it if you can, in a way that, you know, as a lessons for others out there that are. On the journey to build their firm.

 

Andrew Kryder: you know, 20 plus years into it. I kind of look back on when I started and I feel like I was just flying around from one thing to the next and. You know, I would, I would take cases that I ne I would never take now, and I’ve kind of put it into a framework of a couple things. if I were starting my own firm, I would plan for growth better than I [00:40:00] did, because if you’re putting in the effort and the hard work, your firm will grow.

 

It will, it will grow, and you need to plan for that. If you don’t, it’s gonna be a setback. It can be corrected, but it’s gonna be a setback. So I would plan for growth. The other thing I think I would do is plan for longevity. If you’re putting in the work, you’re passionate about it, you’re gonna do this for a while.

 

So start to think about that. You know, what does, what does my five year plan look like? What does my 10 year plan look like? How do I wanna be improving the reputation of my firm, the work that I do over the lifespan of my legal career? So I would plan for longevity. And the other thing I would do is plan for balance.

 

It was something that I still am not the greatest at. Certainly in the first 15 years, I, I didn’t at all, everything was thrown into it. And this is true story, you know, I got roped into coaching my son’s basketball team, second grade [00:41:00] basketball team. So you can imagine what this is. A bunch, a bunch of kids just running around, but the coaching was on Saturday. And so for the first time in 20 years, I stopped working six days a week so I could coach my son. Plan for balance, because it’s important if you’re going to have a successful firm, and you will if you’re putting in the work plan for growth plan for longevity, because if you’re putting in the work, it will be there, but because it’s gonna be a long career.

 

Plan for balance, and this is something that I’ve just kind of like come up with in the last few years, but if I was starting out, I wish I would’ve thought more about that then.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: I like that. That’s great. That, that’s awesome. The, the thing you said about the long plan for longevity, that that is something that I. Tell younger lawyers because as a lawyer you can do lots of different things. And the thing that I think the lawyers that I know that are miserable, they’re the ones that got stuck on a path that they just don’t like, they don’t, they’re not [00:42:00] interested in what they do, but they’re stuck.

 

And so I always advise people, the younger folks to, to pick something that’s gonna hold your interest. for a very, very, very long time because you’re gonna be doing a lot of this. So make sure that it’s something that’s, that, you know, like you said, you’re planning for the long haul, something that can keep your interest, whether it’s getting bored or so, you’re not getting bored, or you just, you’re not in a situation where you just hate what you do.

 

Andrew Kryder: Yeah. Yeah, that burnout is a real thing. So, just. You’re gonna be at it for a while, so, make good decisions now.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: All right, so I wanna pivot to ai. I want to hear what your experience with ai, you know, it’s going to gonna destroy every job in the world, and we’re all gonna be, you know, in the matrix or whatever. So what are you doing with ai? Have you incorporated AI in your practice? And, and, and in what ways and how do you.

 

I guess analyze whether you’re gonna try to insert AI in in the [00:43:00] practice.

 

Andrew Kryder: You know it’s going to really impact the legal community. It, it’s going to, there’s a lot of people that are trying to make folks feel better. It’s gonna be a rude awakening, so we’re, we’re trying our best to get ready for it. We are trying our best to give it a big hug and embrace it and use it to our advantage.

 

We, I went to a really good conference in Orlando in January and came back from that. With a little bit of coaching on how to do prompts properly. I think that was something I was struggling with. And we really refined our prompting system with the help of my operations director. And so now we are using AI to create demand packets, and that’s nothing new.

 

Everybody’s been toying with that, but a lot of ’em, a lot of folks are using firms or companies like, I won’t name ’em. But a lot of firms are using companies to do demand packets, and the reality is they can be done in-house with the proper [00:44:00] training, with the proper prompting, and that’s gonna be a game changer for us.

 

So since January, this is just a great example. So we the person who put together demands for us, we always had a goal of putting together about 35 per month per person with the implementation of the AI that we did. She’s already at 60. So that’s one person practically doubling their output. Okay.

 

You know, every firm’s gonna be different, but I was over the moon excited about this. And then what we did was we, once we refined our prompting, we put a bunch through the pipeline and got the product and we said, okay, great. How do we know it’s right? So what we did was we took the ones that we had done manually.

 

We put those through our prompting system to see if we came out with the same product. And we did I don’t know if I’m explaining this correctly, but just imagine if your demands person creates 20 demands per month, and they do that manually by [00:45:00] going through all the records and getting the diagnosis and adding up the medical bills and stuff like that.

 

We ran that human product through the AI product just to see if we would get the same answer and we did. So that’s sort of how we sort of quality controlled and tested our ai. And now what I’m trying to do is put it into the discovery answering process. So every state’s probably different.

 

Here in Illinois we have standard approved interrogatories for motor vehicle accidents. So it’s basically the same 28 questions every single time. Maybe there’s a tiny difference, but for me. I’ve always looked at the interrogatories as the ultimate prompt, right? You’re, you’re basically asking AI to very specifically answer the same 28 questions each time based on this group of evidence, the medical bills, the police report, and everything else.

 

It’s almost a, a roadmap of drawn up prompts. It’s like built in. So we’re working on that right now. The first thing we wanted to tackle were the demands. We thought that was sort of the [00:46:00] low hanging fruit. And I think, you know, we’re still working on it a little bit, but I’m so pleased with the progress that we made with that, that now we’re looking at the prompting for answers, interrogatories.

 

And I will say this, it’s not as if it’s going to completely remove the need for the attorneys to look at the answers interrogatories. The one attorney in our office who really focuses on that, I always love his quote. He’s like, it’s the art of the interview. And he’s right. The attorney still has to call the client and verify all the information and go through it and get those tiny little, little facts that you probably wouldn’t have gotten out of the medical records.

 

But in talking with the person you do, so the art of the interview is still very important. But if AI can put together answers to interrogatories that are, say, 80 to maybe even 90% complete, that’s a game changer, at least for, for a firm our size. So that’s how we’re looking at AI right now as a supplement, a tool I think, I think a [00:47:00] lot of people are, but again, it’s about the execution.

 

I, you know, I was looking at AI a year ago and just didn’t do much with it now. We’re. We’re pushing it forward. We’re doing what we want to do.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: And a big part of it question that I have is, so Andrew goes in there maybe with your ops person and you really refine the prompts and you, you get, you get the AI system really honed in on demand packages. How do you roll that out to the entire firm to train them, to give them access, to say, okay, this is how we’re all doing it now.

 

How do you, how do you roll that out?

 

Andrew Kryder: Slowly. ‘ cause it’s a little scary. Right? You know, I, I think there’s always a level of apprehension when something new like this comes along and I share that. I do. But you, you focus on the benefits because there are a lot of benefits using that demands Packet example, it is tedious, tedious work going through page after page of medical records [00:48:00] and suddenly having a tool at your disposal that can do that in minutes instead of hours most people would call that a win, you know? And so that’s the way we’re trying to look at it and frame it in the sense that this is something that’s definitely gonna help you. It is gonna save you a tremendous amount of time, and by the way, it’s gonna remove the thing that you find most tedious about the job that you do.

 

So, I guess for us, that’s the way we’re doing. On it.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: You mentioned too, we’re, we’re not naming names. I don’t have any sponsors for this podcast, so it doesn’t matter. I could, I could say what I want, but, a lot of the, AI specific products that are out there. You know, I think they’re just wrapped around sort of the, the foundation LLMs that, like you said, you can sort of do it all yourself in-house, as long as you really create your, your prompts or you train it the right way, then why pay the super marked up price over here that may not even be exactly how you want [00:49:00] it.

 

Andrew Kryder: that’s exactly how I looked at it. And, you know, some of these places were charging $600 to do a demand packet. And I looked at that and I agree. I think that the publicly, that the AI platforms that the public can use are probably more advanced than the ones that are tailored for the legal industry.

 

I think they’re better and, you know, they’re less expensive. And you know, why not train your team to use AI rather than just outsourcing some company? I mean, it’s not going away. It’s only going to get more and more applications, so why not start embracing it so your team becomes comfortable with it and they can start applying it to more and more things that you’re doing in the office. One side note here, too a year ago, year and a half ago, I did a trial run with one of these companies and it was $600 per demand and we never [00:50:00] really adopted it. We just never did it. Okay. That same company is now offering the same product for about $200 per demand, and I was like, that’s interesting.

 

The AI industry is actually killing the AI industry because the cost is coming down so much. So that’s something that I would love to see or keep an eye on. I guess how that evolves over time because there’s so many different companies doing this now. I feel like there’s going to be this staggering change in the pricing of these products in the very near future.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: Great point. I think I saw something on Twitter or X, whatever they call it now. Where, and I think it was this week talking about Claude and, and Claude is, you know, they, they’re pushing out new products and new capabilities every day or every week that are killing all the people that are building all these little AI companies.

 

It’s just so you only have one place you need to go. You don’t have to get all these other ones. So [00:51:00] it’s crazy how fast everything’s moving. It’s just insane. So, don’t have too much. Much more time. But you had mentioned earlier you had your 1, 3, 5, 10, 10 year and, and your sort of, your vision for your firm.

 

So let’s talk about that. What, you’ve been at this for a while, since, you know, over 20 years with your firm. what’s the vision from this day forward? Where would you like to see the firm go?

 

Andrew Kryder: where I’m focused right now is we’re in Chicago, Illinois, and I slowly want to grow the Midwest and, you know, keep Chicago as our hub, sort of our mothership if you will but start to expand into potentially other states, certainly other cities in Illinois. And, and really just kind of, develop satellite presences in other cities and potentially states like Illinois is, is sort of a uniquely situated state in my view.

 

You know, it has so many other states on its border. You know, you’ve got Wisconsin just to the north of Chicago. You’ve got [00:52:00] Michigan just around Lake Michi around the tip of Lake Michigan. Indiana is just very, very close to Chicago too. So you have all these states and. There’s so much transportation going through and fro I really see that as an area for growth just because of where we’re geographically situated here in Chicago.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: A lot of people. A lot of people getting hurt.

 

Andrew Kryder: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

 

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. That’s awesome.

 

Andrew Kryder: But you know, that’s gonna be a change too in the personal injury space, you know, with, with the autonomous driving. That is, it’s here. You know, I was in Arizona over Christmas break with my family and got off the flight and we were out in the taxi line and, and here’s all these autonomously driven vehicles picking people up driving them all around. That’s going to reduce the number of traffic accidents. And because of that, the number of cases that there are for injury firms to handle. So that’s gonna be something that everyone’s gotta adapt [00:53:00] to as well. You know, everyone’s talking about ai. I am kind of more focused on that than AI because the number of cases that are gonna be out there for firms I do think are going to start to diminish over the next 10 years. 

 

Jonathan Hawkins: I will say this, when you look at lawyers as a big group, the personal injury lawyers subgroup. From my perspective are always the quickest to pivot and figure out the next opportunity. You guys, it’s just, I don’t know if it’s, you’ve been trained to do it or you just have to do it, or it’s just innate, but you guys seem to be able to know where that opportunity is.

 

Andrew Kryder: It is the hustle. It’s the hustle I was talking about, right? You gotta be legally agile. I don’t know. I kind of agree with you. I, I, it is a different breed of lawyer. Most personal injury attorneys, I, I do agree with.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: Yes. Alright, so last question, for anybody out there, and we’ve touched on a lot of things, you’ve given some advice along the way, but I, I always like to ask sort of a, a universal [00:54:00] question about, if for others out there that are behind you in their journey, growing their firms or maybe they’re thinking about starting a firm, do you have any pieces of advice for them?

 

Andrew Kryder: You know, I think we touched on it a little bit and it’s three things that have really sort of dawned on me that are obvious, but it’s only dawned on me in recent years, which is prepare for growth. Because if you’re working at it, it will happen. And if you’re growing, prepare for longevity because it will be there.

 

If you’ve got a successful business, it will be there. Then because of that growth and because of the longevity, prepare for balance and plan for it so that the balance kind of maintains the longevity and the longevity is there for the growth. It kind of goes forwards and backwards when I look at it. That’s the best advice I could give.

 

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, we’re gonna end with that, Andrew. Uh, Thanks for coming on. This has been real fun. It’s been fun to hear about your journey and, we touched on some cool stuff. So anybody out there [00:55:00] that wants to get in touch with you. Maybe refer you a, a very big trucking case or something up in, uh, Chicago. What’s the best way to find you?

 

Andrew Kryder: Kryderlaw.com, kryderlaw.com. And Jonathan, thanks so much. I mean, this is a fantastic platform. I love talking about it. I love watching it. There’s just so many great stories to hear how people started in this business, their journey when they started. A lot of times there’s stumbling blocks along the way.

 

You know, that sort of resilience that a lot of people have. It’s, it’s just, it, it’s a really cool platform and forum that you have. So thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it. 

 

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I enjoyed it, so thank you.

 

Andrew Kryder: Got it. Take care. 

 

OutroUpdatedWebsite-1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the founding partner podcast. Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to stay up to date on the latest episodes. You can also connect with Jonathan on LinkedIn and check out the show [00:56:00] notes. With links to resources mentioned throughout our discussion by visiting www.lawfirmgc.com. We’ll see you next time for more origin stories and insights from successful law firm founders.