Jonathan Hawkins: [00:00:00] I could see some of your cases where motions to compel are going across every other day. You got depositions all over the place. You know, maybe you’ve got a trial coming up. When you’re making this transition and then you’ve got to you know, notify the clients, do the file transfers, do the uploads, do all the tech stack, get it all set up, and then move these things, all while you’re maintaining the workflow and doing the cases.

Vivek Tata: Yeah, I think it was largely that we had clients who trusted us and who wanted to keep working with us and, you know, we were able to just. Look, I think it was just a lot of logistics, frankly. I wish there was an easier way to do it, but there isn’t. I mean, you do have to get all of the files.

You have to make sure you have everything you need. And you have to have a place for it to live, right? So you first, before you can start transitioning files, you have to figure out, well, where is this stuff gonna live? Do we have a system? Do we have a filing system? Because you can’t just take a client, client’s files and, you know, not know where to put them, right?

Welcome to the Founding Partner Podcast. Join your host, Jonathan Hawkins, as we explore [00:01:00] the fascinating stories of successful law firm founders. We’ll uncover their beginnings, triumph over challenges, and practice growth. Whether you aspire to launch your own firm, have an entrepreneurial spirit, or are just curious about the legal business, you’re in the right place.

Let’s dive in.

Jonathan Hawkins: Welcome to Founding Partner Podcast. I’m your host, Jonathan Hawkins. This is a podcast where I get to interview founding attorneys and hear about their journeys and lessons they’ve learned along the way. Today’s guest is Vivek Tata. He is a I’ll call it a, a high-end business complex litigator, trial lawyer based in New York.

His firm is Elsberg Baker Maruri. He is a founding partner and currently is the general counsel, and they recently, I say recently, in the, in the fairly recent past, started this firm. I’m, I’m excited to [00:02:00] get into it and hear about what they’re building and, and how it’s been so far. So Vivek, welcome

Vivek Tata: Thanks so much for having me

Jonathan Hawkins: All right.

So your firm, I’ll call it a, and you correct me where I’m wrong, but it’s a, I’ll call it a boutique high-end complex litigation firm. The firm’s been already gotten 25, 2025 Boutique of the Year number one best midsize firm to work for. That’s, that’s pretty good, and you guys have only been around for maybe a couple years, maybe a little over that?

Vivek Tata: That’s exactly right. Yeah. We, we opened in 2020 4, so we’re a little over two years now and it’s just been a rocket ship so far

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. So t- tell us about your firm. What kind of cases do you guys do? And, and for the audience here, we have a audience of all types of law firms so very small to big, family law, plaintiffs, all the stuff. So why don’t you explain exactly what you guys do?

Vivek Tata: Sure. So, so we’re litigation only. We don’t have a transactional department, but within litigation we [00:03:00] do almost any, you know, civil litigation with a focus on commercial litigation. So we have a big, for example, debtor practice complex commercial contracts, trade secrets has been, been a big part of our practice.

It really runs the gamut and we practice, you know, we’ll practice anywhere in the country. Primarily our cases have been in states like New York and, and Delaware California, but, but really a- anywhere in the country. And it’s been, you know, it’s been, it’s been great starting out a firm and seeing how that go- how that goes.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, so, so you’re based in New York. Is that the only off- office you guys have?

Vivek Tata: Yeah, we’re a one-office firm. That’s, that’s right

Jonathan Hawkins: But trial lawyers will travel.

Vivek Tata: Ex- exactly. That’s right. You, you need your litigation bag and then you’re good to go

Jonathan Hawkins: So tell me about the cases. I think, correct me if I’m wrong, you do both sort of an hourly practice but also a plaintiff contingency or success fee type practice

Vivek Tata: Sure. So, so we, you know, we do both sides of the V. We will take cases and we like that. I think although it’s not a target that I’ve set, I think generally my practice has been [00:04:00] 50% plaintiff, pl- 50% defendant. And I really like that, and I think we, we all l- like that mix because as I’m sure you know, you, from, from, from practicing, you get to see all angles of a case.

your strategies evolve if you think about things from the plaintiff side. You tend to be more aggressive even when you’re on the defense side because you have that plaintiff side experience. So I think the practices feed into each other. And, and we’ll take on, you know, we- we’re happy to do AFAs, you know, contingency or other types of, of cases.

A lot of our work is hourly

Jonathan Hawkins: So tell me, I’ll call it business litigation, or that’s just what I’ll call it. I’m sure you do more than that. You maybe have qui tam and whistleblower and antitrust, some other things probably. And some of those are more ripe for contingency than others. But, you know, from a business litigation perspective you gotta be careful with the cases you take on contingency.

So how do you guys think about that as you’re considering whether to do it on contingency?

Vivek Tata: Yeah, I think, I think for contingency or any sort of alternative arrangement, [00:05:00] y-you need to know the capabilities of your firm really well. You need to have the experience, obviously, of having done cases like that. And I think it’s really essential before taking on a case e-especially if it’s a complex case, to really dig into the materials before you propose any sort of arrangement.

Because otherwise, you end up in a situation where, one, either the client or the lawyer really regrets the, the arrangement. And so I, I think if you go into it w-with your eyes open you can assess the case really well and you know, you know what you’re getting into. Obviously, there are surprises, but, you know, we found that as long as we do our, our diligence, w-we, you know, we’re, we’re happy, very happy with the results.

Jonathan Hawkins: And collectability has gotta be high on the list of what to think through. It’s, you don’t necessarily have a big insurance company’s pockets to dig into. So, you know, in a business I don’t know if you’ve ac- you guys have encountered it, but you don’t wanna end up in a fraudulent transfer chase on the other end of a, of a verdict, do you?

Vivek Tata: No, I, I think that’s, that’s absolutely right. I mean, and that’s something you always have to look at. And, [00:06:00] and, you know, we have had situations as I’m sure every firm has, where you’re asked to take something on contingency, and it actually looks like a, a slam dunk. But the problem is going to be that the defendant knows it’s a slam dunk, and they’ve, they’ve taken the cash and run away with it.

So, you know, you obviously have to, you have to look for that when you’re taking a case on.

Jonathan Hawkins: So let’s go back a little bit to your background. So, we’ll pick it up after law school. You, you started with s- I’ll call it the big firm, big law route and then you, you s- you pivoted from there. But why don’t you take us back. As, as you were coming out of law school, did you know what you wanted to do?

Did you always wanna be a trial lawyer? W- w- what, what was your decision process?

Vivek Tata: Yeah. Actually, I, and I have to go back a little bit even before graduating. So I went to law school, I’ll go back and rewind a little bit. I was– I, I worked in business for a little while before going to law school. I was in the tech industry. And I went to law school thinking probably primarily that I would be a, a transactional lawyer.

I hadn’t really thought through being a, a trial lawyer in part just because I’d been in business, and so the [00:07:00] lawyers you interact with tend to be on the transactional side. And in my first summer in law school, I had the opportunity to extern for a judge who was an extraordinary lawyer in his own right and then, you know, of course, became a federal judge and did– you know, was a, was a very well-regarded judge, very hardworking and rigorous.

I mean, he really– Even for interns, he was very tough on our drafts, made us better writers, you know, made us better thinkers, and I loved that experience. And I suspect that, you know, any, any members of your audience who are, who are lawyers who are litigators and, and trial lawyers will appreciate, you know, the first time you walk into a courtroom as a lawyer or as a law student, i-if you have that feeling, like, “I belong here.

I wanna do this. This is exciting. This is fun,” y-y– that feeling doesn’t go away. And, and certainly that was my experience. And in fact, watching, you know, watching lawyers argue, that feeling of, “Hey, I can do that,” or, “I, I’d love to give it– give that a shot,” you know, that has certainly not gone away. And it was that experience I think that really made me think, “Wait, I actually wanna do litigation.”

Then [00:08:00] my second summer, I was a law clerk for a big firm. I still took the option of, of doing a few transactional projects that summer, and very quickly, I would say almost on my first day, was like, “Yep, this is not for me. I’m not doing it.” And I loved the litigation work that I did. And so that’s, that’s what I– That’s really what made the decision for me.

And then coming out of law school, I knew I wanted to go into litigation.

Jonathan Hawkins: And so, and then you went, you went big firm route, but then did you pivot and go clerk for a judge?

Vivek Tata: exactly. So I, I graduated from law school, worked only for a few months at a big firm the same one I had summered at, and I had a good experience. And then I went to clerk for a judge in the Eastern District who has been an, a, a incredible mentor. And that cemented the fact, you know, the idea that I wanted to be not just a litigator, but one of my mentors called a, a, a courtroom lawyer, not a paper lawyer.

Like, I wanted to be in court. I wanted to be arguing. I wanted to be in trial. And I knew that at a big firm there was a risk that, you know, although they deal with sophisticated matters, [00:09:00] there’s a lot of, you know, summary judgment and settle, and I didn’t really want that route. And I also wanted to make sure that I had the opportunity to build the experience I’d need to be a real trial lawyer.

And so I, I did something I think that at that point was a little bit unconventional, and I think it’s become a lot more normal, which is to go to a boutique after my clerkship

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. S- I did a clerkship as well, and the thing that I really liked about it, it was sort of a good in-between from the law school theoretical side sort of easing into litigation. So you saw the trial work, you saw the, the pleadings and the, and the motions that came through. You didn’t see all the discovery part, but you saw, you know, you saw a good part of it.

You started to get your feet wet, and then, you know, on the other side when you started to practice, you, it… I felt like I had a little bit, I was ready for it a little bit more than maybe I would’ve been otherwise

Vivek Tata: I, I think that’s absolutely right, and I think also you see, you know, if you have a– if you’re working for a good judge, and I worked for a, a great judge, you, you see how hard the law can be. You know, judges are, are, you know, almost always lawyers who’ve done extremely well, you know, [00:10:00] who, who could do anything they wanted and have chosen to, to be in public service.

And they work very hard. They’re very diligent. They’re thoughtful. And it’s an important reminder, I think, that ultimately, you know, we, we have a, a– we’re a profession that really should value making sure that justice is done, and seeing judges day in and day out work really hard to, to achieve that result is, I think, important for me as a lawyer and, and to remind me, you know, why I’m doing this in the first place.

Jonathan Hawkins: And the other good thing is you see a lot of work product. You see a lot of different work product. You start to see the good stuff, the bad stuff, and then, like, you know, for me, I’m thinking, “All right, how is the clerk gonna look at this? I wanna make sure mine’s pretty good when they see it.” So that’s, that’s another benefit, I think

Vivek Tata: Oh, 100%. I think– And you, you learn… one thing, you know, one thing that I remember taking away from that experience is i-it’s– Yes, of course, you wanna be pithy and, and you know, maybe a little snappy in your writing, but you also have to make sure that the person reading it knows what you’re talking about.

And you can’t ever forget that the clerk has gone through… [00:11:00] You know, you’re just case number 100 that, that’s on their desk, and you can’t assume that they remember all the acronyms and facts that you’ve memorized by the time you’re writing this brief. And that’s an important reminder that I think is You know, that’s something that I always c-come back to.

Jonathan Hawkins: Okay, so then you left your clerkship to go to a litigation boutique. So take me through that thought process versus going back to the big firm, you’re like, “Nope, I’m gonna go to a boutique.”

Vivek Tata: Yeah. I, I think you know, the easy thing would be to go to the big firm, and I’m not a hugely risk, you know, risk-taking person. That would’ve been sort of the normal career choice. But I saw very quickly in the clerkship that there are lawyers who are very comfortable in the courtroom, and that comes from doing it.

I think that’s pretty straight, that’s pretty clear. And there was an opportunity to join a boutique that was just getting off the ground in 2018. And I knew that if I went to a place like that, where they were just growing, they were building, they needed associates, they were gonna give them experience, that I would have the opportunity to actually practice trial law at the highest level.

And so I decided to sort of take that leap. And I [00:12:00] don’t think in retrospect that it was much of a risk, actually. Because I think although lawyers tend to be risk-averse, we sometimes forget that there’s risk in inertia and not changing up and not taking risks. I mean, there’s actually risk in just sort of letting your career drift along, and you actually want to be active and thinking about what is it that I need to do for my own experience so that I can be the best lawyer I can be?

Jonathan Hawkins: I think that’s so true. I think a lot of lawyers I don’t wanna single them out, but particularly at big firm, it’s you get comfortable and then you feel like it’s too risky to leave, where I think sometimes it’s too risky to stay. And particularly if you go to a smaller firm where you get a lot of experience quick, then you’re building a skill set that you really can take anywhere.

I mean, if you’re at a firm where you’ve gotten a lot of frontline real world experience and a plane goes down and the entire firm is gone except for you, you’ve got a skill set that you can take somewhere else. Maybe do your own thing if you have to, but you’ve got it because you were there doing it.

Vivek Tata: That’s absolutely right, and I think one thing that, that working at a [00:13:00] boutique has taught me, first in, you know, first the, the one I started in in twenty eighteen and then our, our firm now in both situations we started in, you know, early days there wasn’t much infrastructure, right? I think at both firms we…

the firms started, people working from home. There were no– There wasn’t an office or anything like that. But the great thing about computers and the internet and Westlaw is you don’t need a lot. and to your point, if everything else w-were to go away I think in the modern world, a lawyer with internet access and Microsoft Word can be extraordinarily effective.

Although of course it’s great to have resources, you don’t always need them

Jonathan Hawkins: All right, so take me through, so as you’re coming out of the clerkship, y- you’ve decided you wanna go to a boutique. Did you make that decision first and then look for one, or did the opportunity arise and then you said, “All right, yeah, I’m gonna go this way”? How did you find, how’d you find the job?

Vivek Tata: It was opportunistic. I wasn’t, I wasn’t specifically looking for a boutique, although I did try to keep in mind my mentor’s advice, as I said, you know, “You wanna be a, a trial lawyer, not a paper lawyer.” And so I was a little bit skeptical of [00:14:00] returning to, Well, I shouldn’t say returning to a firm, but, but going to a big firm where I wasn’t sure that I would get a lot of subs- substantive experience.

And so that was probably my primary criteria. But I, I didn’t have in my mind

Jonathan Hawkins: So you, you went to the boutique, you, you’re, you’re getting your chops, you’re learning, you’re learning how to, to, you know, try cases manage clients, all the stuff. And then in 2024, the opportunity arose to go start, start a new firm, start your own firm. Tell me about the genesis of that. And, and just for context, it was you and was it five others?

So you

Vivek Tata: Exactly.

Jonathan Hawkins: six total co-founders. Tell, tell me about, you know, you– I mean, maybe the overall sort of genesis, but then what was going through your mind?

Vivek Tata: It was an opportunity to work with people who I really respect and, and like working with. I mean, I, I, I enjoyed working with my old firm, but the, the folks that we started this firm with are I, I think some of the best lawyers I’ve ever worked with or against. [00:15:00] They’re the people that I really like to come in, you know, when I come to work to see them.

I think we get along really well and we also practice law together really well. We complement each other’s strengths. And I, and I think if you can find a group like that, and I was lucky to find five people I think it’s unusual, but if you can find some- if you can find people like that, even if it’s just one other person, the decision to work with them feels a lot less risky.

Because as you said, you know, you can just start a firm. You can- anybody can open a shingle. You can open open a firm and hang up a shingle, right? So if you, if you have five people and you think they’re all great lawyers, then you know, that’s five times as strong

Jonathan Hawkins: And for you, was there ever any doubt, “Yeah, I’m going to do this,” or maybe, “Maybe I don’t wanna do this”?

Vivek Tata: I mean, maybe, maybe a little bit. I actually think, a- and this is, you know, your, your gut tells you it’s the right choice, right? If you, if you, if you have this opportunity to say, “You know, you know what? I wanna do it.” And, you know, there’s a common saying, you know, if you, if you get offered a seat on a rocket ship, take it, right?

You don’t, you don’t sort of second-guess these opportunities ’cause these opportunities don’t come along every [00:16:00] day. And so it was sort of do it now or don’t do it

Jonathan Hawkins: That’s right. A- a- and you’re right. It, it is, I think, you know, starting a firm is easy. All you need is a, a computer, an internet connection, and a, and a bar license,

Vivek Tata: I deal with some clients too,

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, well,

Vivek Tata: yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: that’s a diff- that’s a different story. That’s more than starting a firm. Definitely you want those, a- and to survive, you’re gonna need them for sure.

But yeah, I mean, anybody could just say, you know, “Hey, I’m, I’m a firm now.” And so I assume when you guys started, I, I assume you had a bulk of, you know, ongoing active cases that probably transitioned with you

Vivek Tata: We, we did and I, and, and, and that was it was a real ride because you’ve got cases and you’ve– it’s gotta be seamless. I mean, you can’t– your clients can’t experience a disruption at all, and I, I don’t think any of our clients did, very fortunately. But it’s, you know, you’ve gotta be… when you’re starting the firm and you don’t– we didn’t have associates at that point.

I mean, you, we were doing everything ourselves. And it was a-actually a great experience and it confirmed that we were doing the right thing[00:17:00]

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. So tell me, so it was the six of you partners, no associates. What about staff? Who came with you and who, who was there in the beginning?

Vivek Tata: Well, we had folks, we had folks join us and we, we have and, and had a, a, a non-lawyer CEO who is someone who has been extraordinarily valuable. And I think for firms that, you know, once you get to a certain point, I, I strongly recommend considering something like that, like a COO or C-CEO because it allows the lawyers to focus on what they’re good at, which is law, and maybe takes them off of doing things where a legal background is not actually that helpful and is not, you know, client-focused or, or business building.

So the operations of a firm. And as you grow, that obviously can be quite significant. And so to have someone who’s dedicated, who knows what they’re doing who knows the legal space, but even if they’re not a lawyer has been extraordinarily helpful and I think allowed us to scale a lot more quickly than we would have if the lawyers had been splitting their time between, you know, doing the actual legal work, [00:18:00] serving clients, working on getting new business, but then also having to manage the internal dynamics of a firm

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, that, that stuff I’ll just say is a pain in the ass.

Vivek Tata: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: you know, I, I think more and more firms are, are bringing in, I’ll call it the C-suite, non-lawyer C-suite type people, but it’s still not as common as you would expect. And a lot of lawyers push back on that, and they’re like, “We’re not bringing in a non-lawyer to, to run this place.”

What was the thought process behind you guys coming in, starting off the bat with a non-lawyer CEO? And then importantly, how did you find the person? Because that’s the other thing. Sometimes people say, “I want one,” and then you look around, and it’s really hard to find that person.

Vivek Tata: Well, we were fortunate enough to have worked with our COO Josette before at our, at our old firm. And so we knew what she was capable of and, and, and I think we were very lucky. And I do think you need to find the right person, of course. Because it is, it, it, you know, cl- law is obviously a very client-driven business.

You need to retain your focus on the [00:19:00] client and having folks who are doing other activities at the firm, and the partners need to be aware of what’s happening, and that can be hard. So it has to be someone you trust, someone that you can feel comfortable delegating to and, and knowing that they’re managing the firm, you know, as well or probably better than you could given their background and their experience

Jonathan Hawkins: I wanna talk about some of the logistics too, because I suspect just from talking to you, looking at your website, knowing enough about the industry, that you guys have some really sophisticated, meaty intense cases going on, like, that are probably in all different stages.

You know, I could see some of your cases where motions to compel are going across every other day. You got depositions all over the place. You know, maybe you’ve got a trial coming up. When you’re making this transition and then you’ve got to you know, notify the clients, do the file transfers, do the uploads, do all the tech stack, get it all set up, and then move these things, all while you’re maintaining the workflow and doing the cases.[00:20:00]

How did you guys make that work? Because it’s easier said than done, for sure.

Vivek Tata: Yeah, I think it was largely that we had clients who trusted us and who wanted to keep working with us and, you know, we were able to just. Look, I think it was just a lot of logistics, frankly. I wish there was an easier way to do it, but there isn’t. I mean, you do have to get all of the files.

You have to make sure you have everything you need. And you have to have a place for it to live, right? So you first, before you can start transitioning files, you have to figure out, well, where is this stuff gonna live? Do we have a system? Do we have a filing system? Because you can’t just take a client, client’s files and, you know, not know where to put them, right?

So, a lot of things. It’s like building an airplane, like, while you’re flying, right? You have to make sure that you have the infrastructure essentially immediately as the client transitions, because otherwise the client’s gonna feel some disruption. And yeah, I mean, I remember basically, I think it was probably a few nights after we tr– after we started the new firm I was up late filing filing in one of our cases.

And we didn’t have any infrastructure. I was doing it myself and, you know, trying to make sure we got all the exhibits in and everything else before [00:21:00] midnight. And I’m sure you’ve been there. I know probably every lawyer, every litigator has certainly. But, you know, you have to do it for the client.

Jonathan Hawkins: And that’s the other part. You go from a place where you have all the support to a place where you are the support. Back in your business background, were you at sort of established business or were you in startup type places?

Vivek Tata: No, I was at Google, so I was at a very established big, big, big place. And that’s one of the things that, you know, actually made this an interesting jump for me is that having come from a business background where I was in an established company, going to law school and then deciding actually I wanted to do something that’s more startup-like was an interesting transition.

Jonathan Hawkins: So y- so it’s six of you come over, you’ve got your CEO, maybe some other staff and then I think you’ve got some… What do you have? 20, 20 lawyers now or so?

Vivek Tata: we’re actually at 30 or maybe a little bit b- a little bit above, yeah,

Jonathan Hawkins: Wow. Okay. So that’s, that’s big growth. So basically two years you went from six to 30.

Vivek Tata: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: That’s a lot.

Vivek Tata: it has been. It’s [00:22:00] been, and it’s been really gratifying. And it goes to something I was saying earlier, which is I think back even when I graduated, so 2016, it was not as common for folks to come out of law school, go to a boutique. Certainly happened, but it wasn’t the, the norm. I think especially in litigation, certainly in New York, that’s changed.

I think it is much more of a, of a of an acceptable and sort of well-trod path. I think people realize coming out of school that they can get great experience at boutiques, and we’ve had, you know, we’ve been very fortunate to get just incredible associates to come with us

Jonathan Hawkins: So let’s talk about that. You, you have fi- five times growth, at least in terms of a- attorney head count in two years. That is a lot of interviews, a lot of recruiting. How do you find the people and then get them in, onboard them, get the culture right? How, how did you guys work that angle?

Vivek Tata: Yeah. I mean, some of it’s infrastructure. We have staff that we have an incredible, you know, recruiting and HR department, and they are essential to what we do. We do college– We do law recruiting, law, law [00:23:00] school recruiting. So, we’re on campus. And that, that is… It’s a lot of work, and you have a lot of interviews.

But part of it is getting your name out there. And then I think also if you can offer your associates a good experience, they know other good people, right? It’s like anything else. Good people know good people. And I’ve always found that the best indicator of someone’s ability as an associate is, you know, the people they’ve worked with before

Jonathan Hawkins: And I have seen too, personally and just knowing a lot of lawyers over the years, that once you reach a critical mass, it just sort of feeds on itself. It’s easier to recruit and people are knocking on your door versus you trying to find them. So you probably now are getting resumes. You’re probably getting resumes from all the district judges, right?

That are just

Vivek Tata: Yeah, absolutely. And we try to make sure that they know we’re, we’re recruiting and then it becomes really hard to, you know, find the right fit

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. That, that is the key.

Real quick, if you haven’t gotten a copy yet, please check out my book, the Law Firm Lifecycle. It’s written for law firm owners and those who plan to be owners. In the [00:24:00] book, I discuss various issues that come up as a law firm progresses through the stages of its growth from just before starting a firm to when it comes to an end.

The law firm lifecycle is available on Amazon. Now, back to the show.

Jonathan Hawkins: So let’s talk about that. So five times growth in two years, how do you maintain… I, I’m sure you guys have a certain culture you want to maintain. How do you work to maintain that with the massive growth?

Vivek Tata: It, it’s not easy. I think that’s actually probably the biggest challenge and will always be our biggest challenge because you know, I firmly believe that people are at the core of what a law firm is. And it, it’s– I think you just have to keep reinforcing it. You know, we, we pride ourselves on being trial lawyers.

We wanna give people experience. We wanna hold everybody to a high standard, and we want people to hold themselves to a high standard. And when you do that and you know that you can rely on the people that you’re working with whether or not they’re senior to you or junior to you, it doesn’t matter.

If you can really inculcate a team environment where everyone feels [00:25:00] like… Just like a team sport, right? Everybody’s on the team. Everybody has a role to play. I think first of all, that’s critical for doing good client work, right? I-i– In a trial practice, you have to run things that way. But I also think you just have to keep reinforcing it.

I mean, trial after trial, day after day, the way you treat people, I think you just have to keep doing it, and hopefully those people will then attract other people like that

Jonathan Hawkins: And so you mentioned when you first started, you didn’t have an office, you’re hybrid. What’s, what’s the work now? Is it hybrid? Is it in-office? H- how do you guys work that?

Vivek Tata: Yeah. I think most people tend to come into the office more often than not. You know, we, we trust our lawyers to, to do that, and I, I think most people actually do come in. And I think it’s, especially in a trial practice, it’s really important. I mean, we’ve got depositions going on in a couple of cases and trials coming up.

And I think when you’re all in the same room, when you’re in and out of each other’s offices… I’m notorious for just sort of walking around the halls and popping into people’s offices. I don’t know if they like it or not. But it is– It, it… You know, I [00:26:00] do that because I, I do think there’s a difference when, you know, versus being on the screen.

I mean, I was practicing during COVID, I’m, I’m sure you were, and, and it, it’s very different when you’re working with someone, you’ve never met them. You’re just sort of interacting through a screen. It feels really impersonal, and it feels sometimes like you’re just sending work across and then getting markups back.

That’s not fun. It doesn’t feel like you’re, you’re building something together. I think if you’re strategizing together, y-you’re working together, you’re popping into each other’s offices when you have a great idea certainly I know as an associate, those are the moments I remember, and I have to assume that’s how our associates feel.

I have very, very strong memories of actually working with David Ellsberg, who’s one of our named partners when he– when I was an associate, and he was a, a partner at our old firm. And working with him late at night, just batting ideas around, “How are we gonna attack this argument? How are we gonna make this argument?

How do we deconstruct this contract?” And I still remember that vividly. And, and I, I think that’s what brings people back and makes people really wanna contribute to a firm

Jonathan Hawkins: [00:27:00] Wholeheartedly agree. Wholeheartedly agree. And it’s, it’s the, especially, you know, you mentioned when you were an associate being there, you may not be at this firm if, if you had been remote because you wouldn’t have developed the relationship. A- and I think a lot of… And maybe it’s changed, but there was a while there that a bunch of associates said, “Hey we should be– you should let us be remote.”

I’m okay with hybrid, I think, but fully remote, I just think it’s number one, it’s a disservice, I think, to the clients, but really it’s a disservice to the attorney’s own career. I still get referrals from attorneys I worked with two firms ago where we went to lunch three days a week, you know, and if I was remote, it wouldn’t be happening.

You know? And so I think you really… I’m not sure associates are pushing back on that as much anymore, but I really think there’s so many benefits of being in the office versus out that it should just be a no-brainer

Vivek Tata: I think, I think that’s right. I, I, I totally agree, and I… You know, you mentioned going to lunch with folks that you worked with a couple of firms [00:28:00] ago. I’ve told associates this, and it’s certainly true for me, that the, some of the strongest professional relationships that you’ll build as a lawyer are the folks that you work with in your first few years because you’re all sort of in it together, good or bad, and you’re all commiserating or you’re all sort of celebrating together and you celebrate each other’s victories.

Someone gets an opportunity to do something, they’ve done, they’ve written a great brief, they’ve done a deposition, you congratulate them. Or, you know, something goes out happy, ha- something happy happens in their personal life. Those are the relationships that you, you know, I think you maintain for years and years

Jonathan Hawkins: So let’s, let’s talk a little bit, I wanna talk a little bit about the vision of the firm. You know, the six of you said, “Hey, we like working with each other. We wanna create a boutique trial firm.” You, you’ve done that and you are doing that. So you, again, six to 30, that’s quite an accomplishment in a such a short period of time.

As you look forward what, what are you guys, what are you trying to build? Have you already built it, or is there more to build? Is it, “Hey, we’re gonna stay in New York. Maybe we’ll look at other offices”? As you look to the [00:29:00] future, what sorts of things do you want to accomplish that you haven’t yet?

Vivek Tata: I, my– at least personally, and I think, you know, all our partners may have different views on this, but personally, I try not to be too wedded to a future plan. And the reason is because a firm is its people. And so any plan I think has to start with, are we hiring the absolute best people we really like to work with?

I think if you go down the road of trying to– if you’re trying to expand or you’re trying to hit a numerical target with, you know, we want, I don’t know, sixty lawyers, or we wanna have offices in three jurisdictions, whatever it is, those may be worthy goals, but I don’t think you can accomplish them in a good way unless you’re only doing it because you can find the people, the right people to be in those roles.

So I’d rather start with the people and then let it grow organically than, than start with a goal and then try to have to find people to fit that growth

Jonathan Hawkins: yeah, that makes a lot of sense. The other piece is you gotta have the work.[00:30:00]

Vivek Tata: 100%. Oh, 100%. Yeah, absolutely

Jonathan Hawkins: And I mean, that drives a lot of it too. I mean, I, I imagine if all of a sudden you, you guys had tons of cases based out of California, you’re like, “All right, maybe we need a California office ’cause we’re just there all the time.” But, you know, it’s so, so I, I get it. Yeah, the people drive it, clients drive it. think it’s, I, I agree with you. It’s, it, you shouldn’t be wed to just a, a, a growth for growth’s sake kind of goal. And so, I assume that your growth from the six to 30 has been work driven probably. You just need, need people or, or is it a mix of both?

Build it and

Vivek Tata: No, see that it, it, it absolutely has been. I mean, it’s been– We, we need, we needed… I mean, we knew when we started that we were going to be, we, we certainly knew we were gonna be six people. I think we, we had, you know, we, we knew we had the work and we, we, you know, were very fortunate to have had work to, to staff and maybe more work than you know, felt comfortable at, at times.

And that’s when you staff up, and you find the best people you, you, you can, and we’ve been really lucky. Going forward, I think it’ll probably be more of the same. I don’t know that we’ll, you know, [00:31:00] have the same growth rate, right? We have a critical mass now. I think we feel like we can take on basically any case of the sort of cases that we wanna take on.

We’re big enough that we can do it. And so now it’s, it’s somewhat more opportunistic although we’re always looking for great people

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. All right, so the six of you come over, you divide roles. You’re general counsel for the firm. Have you been general counsel from the beginning, or is that something that popped in your lap later?

Vivek Tata: No, I, I– it’s from the beginning. We all sort of just, everyone has to do something, right? It’s a small firm. You know, sometimes people wear multiple hats, but I’m, I’m the GC

Jonathan Hawkins: And so tell me, what, what does, what does that entail for you? What sorts of things come up in that role?

Vivek Tata: A lot of it is just maintaining process and procedure, right? You need to have a complex system. You need to make sure that you are maintain– you know, you, you know what your key contracts are. Someone has to read contracts that the firm is signing, right? Make sure our hiring process is, is appropriate.

All, all the stuff that s- any s- any business has to do, right? Just in in a smaller version of that. [00:32:00] And you know, I’m sure I know you know, you know this. And doing it alongside an active practice is where I think the challenge comes in.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Yeah. That is the challenge. At any, any law firm where the lawyers are serving in, in various leadership or operational or administrative roles, I mean, it’s just, just get pulled every which way. So it definitely need to spread it out for sure. So that’s good. So I wanna, I wanna pivot a little bit. You know, your firm’s a boutique, your last firm was a boutique. I wanna just hear your thoughts on, you know, way back when boutiques were pretty rare. They are becoming more common now. you know, for people out there that are thinking about what kind of firm do I wanna go to? What kind of firm do I wanna build?

What are your general thoughts on more of a broad practice versus we’re gonna, we’re gonna niche?

Vivek Tata: I think– So we, we tend to, we, we think of ourselves as generalists and that’s, I think, because we like having the mix. So of course, a lot of it has to do with what you like. I-I’ve always liked the fact that [00:33:00] in litigation every case is different. I’m learning, constantly learning about new things, and that’s actually part of what I like doing.

Of, of course, there are people who I think have more niche practices and I think if you, if you will be fulfilled by that, you know, career for a long time, then that’s great. And, and I think there’s a great market. I mean, of course, IP, for example, there’s a great market for that type of service or antitrust.

Like, there are these niche firms that do really well. But you have to know that that’s going to be the lane you’re living in for, for a long time. I think it can be harder to pivot once you’ve established yourself in that lane

Jonathan Hawkins: And so you’ve got a, I’ll, I’ll say a general practice for litigation, but it’s sort of in I’ll call it, I mean, we’re calling it boutique, but a niche firm. And you don’t have corporate, you don’t have real estate. Why did you guys decide, “Hey, we’re not gonna, we’re not gonna try to bolt that on,” or, “We’re, we’re gonna stay in our litigation lane”?

Vivek Tata: So there are two, probably two primary reasons. The first is it’s the people that we knew, right? I mean, as I said, the firm is the people. We started out with litigators who are a litigation firm. I think that’s, that’s part of it. A big part of it is [00:34:00] also just this is our core competency. I mean, we’d have to go out and sort of make an active decision.

Do we wanna add a corporate department? What would that look like? Who would it be? Then you add a whole bunch of conflicts, right? As a litigator, one of the great things, particularly in New York, you have a lot of financial institutions and other sophisticated clients. One of the things that we can offer our clients is that we tend to be conflict, you know, tend to be conflict-free because we don’t have a big corporate department.

And that’s, you know, not just technical conflicts, but also positional conflicts. You don’t have to, you know, you don’t have clients who are doing a certain type of deal and then on the litigation side deciding, “Well, can I attack that kind of deal, or is that gonna make some of my clients upset?” And, and we don’t have that issue

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Great point on the conflicts. I wonder it… I have found it, I’ve seen it also just on business development, getting clients. If, if you have the corporate department, then all the corporate lawyers all o- all over the country and in town are gonna be more reluctant to send you a matter, I would think

Vivek Tata: Oh that’s absolutely right. I think that’s absolutely [00:35:00] right. I think it makes the conversation around, around referrals a lot easier. We are, you know, we, we pride ourselves on sort of playing well in the sandbox. We’re not, you know… We don’t have a corporate department that’s gonna try to edge out your corporate department, anything like that

Jonathan Hawkins: So let’s talk about business development marketing. We can talk about you individually or your firm or both. You know, how do you guys, how do you get your clients? How do you get your cases?

Vivek Tata: It’s a mix of referrals, prior relationships and just going out and meeting people. I think it’s, it’s– that’s I would say what I imagine is the standard mix. Of course, we don’t have the corporate department that– referring work internally. But otherwise, you know, we have a good network of folks we’ve either been against or litigated with, and I’m always gratified when someone that we’ve litigated against refers us work, which, which does happen.

And of course, we also just have networks in the city. But it’s, it’s something you’re always working on, right? I, I think every lawyer knows you can’t just rest on your laurels. You gotta keep getting out there and just building your practice.

Jonathan Hawkins: Have you, have you gotten by at a former opposing party yet? Not the, not a [00:36:00] referral from opposing counsel, but the opposing party hired you. Have you been there yet?

Vivek Tata: Yeah. I– So, so I, I, certainly, like, that’s something that has happened and we, it’s really gratifying, right? And that’s something that you can do to show people it’s one of the rewards for good work, right? Is that people see it and they go, “Oh, yeah, next time I want that guy as my lawyer.” And, and yeah, as I said, and also having opposing counsel do that too is a, is a mark of respect, right? When you are, are aga- up against someone and you think they’re a good enough lawyer that you would entrust a client you know, you have to them because you can’t take on a matter for whatever reason I think is really one of the highest marks of respect you can pay another lawyer

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Yeah. That’s cool. So how do you balance… I’m sure you are super busy doing the work, and you’ve got, you’ve got a young son and a family. You got that. You, you’re general counsel, you’re doing all the stuff. How do you balance that with, all right, I gotta continually get out there to do the relationship development, business development?

Vivek Tata: I think it’s, it, it’s impossible to ever have a perfect balance. I think there are weeks [00:37:00] that go by where, you know, the family is maybe the thing that I’m spending a bit more time on because work is a little bit quiet. And then there are weeks where, you know, like I, I’m in the office every night and I’m staying there until work gets done.

And I don’t– I think– I don’t want to say I’ve given up on, but I don’t think that it, is practical to worry too much about am I striking a balance on a daily basis because I just don’t think you can

Jonathan Hawkins: I’m pivot again. So, I was a partner at two firms before I started my own firm. And I, I– It’s way different becoming a partner in an established firm to starting your own firm, for me at least. Just, you know, the the– Even the ownership mentality is slightly diff- I mean, maybe not even slightly, but it’s very different, you know.

My last firm, I was a partner, so I technically was an owner, but it didn’t quite feel like my baby. But when I was, you know, founding this firm, it completely changed. What’s been your experience being on the other [00:38:00] side now of actually founding this firm and growing it?

Vivek Tata: Certainly the ownership feeling is there, although I really try to– I want everyone to feel like they have a role in building the firm, right? Including the most junior associate, staff, everybody, I think. Because when you’re starting a business, everybody should feel like they are part of building it. But certainly as a founding partner, yeah, that’s absolutely part of it.

I mean, I’m, I’m very happy to come to work and know that this is a place that I helped build

Jonathan Hawkins: Are there any mindset shifts, anything that you’ve, you, that are different now that you’re on sort of on the other side?

Vivek Tata: I think the focus on what– are we doing what’s right for the future, right? I think you always wanna have that future view, but I think certainly when you are talking about your own business, you know, you’re, you’re invested for the long term. You get– And I think it’s actually a privilege. You have a long-term perspective, right?

You– I mean, you’re– it’s, it’s great to be able to, to think that way. I mean, it can add stress and pressure because you have to think not just, you know, what happens in the next six months, but you know, what [00:39:00] is the next ten– what do the next ten years look like? How are we gonna grow? The questions you were asking before, you know.

What makes sense strategically for the business? Because there are decisions that you might make that in the short term, you know, are, are hard or difficult or, you know, take a lot of money or time, but that you believe will help your business in the next five, ten years. And if you’re, you know, a founding partner, that’s something you have to deal with you know, for every decision.

It can’t just be short term. Well, you know, it’s good for the bottom line in the next three months, so let’s do it. You have to, you have to take the longer view

Jonathan Hawkins: I think that there’s a lot of truth in that. When you are founding a firm, you, you’re not founding a firm to shut it down in five years. It’s like you’re founding something that you want to last for… You know, the runway is, is pretty long. And I think that’s what makes it exciting for all the people that are joining you.

They know there’s gonna be a lot of runway versus firms that have been around a long time. You get into these weird dynamics where you have partners that are on the verge of retirement versus the brand new ones into these different differing views of what we should do. [00:40:00] Should we invest for the future or just pay now and shut it down?

It’s, it’s a very different view and I, I think that long-term view, I, is exciting. It’s, it’s exciting for me. I’m sure it’s exciting for you

Vivek Tata: Absolutely. And it’s, it’s one of the things that we wanna promise our our associates, is that we wanna give everyone the opportunity to try to build their career here, right? And if, if not here, then at least you, you gain skills and you, you, you know, learn about the law and you hopefully have a, have a good time, you know, being a lawyer.

But you might have the opportunity to be here for a long time, and we wanna make sure that opportunity exists. And I think it’s harder to do that, as you say, at a, at a firm that’s really established that where there are institutional pressures and maybe not to grow or to not promote

Jonathan Hawkins: So sitting here today, now that you’ve been on this growth trajectory of a couple years any advice for folks out there that may be thinking about, maybe I wanna venture out and start a firm, but they’re maybe a little unsure, maybe they have some of this risk aversion. What advice would you give them?

Vivek Tata: There’s no perfect [00:41:00] time. At least I can’t think of what that perfect time would be. I think if it’s something that people wanna do, that’s a pretty good sign that you should give it real thought. I think obviously being cognizant of the risk, thinking about how having a plan, right? So going into it thinking, “Right, here’s how I’m gonna generate my first couple of clients,” right?

“I’ve got the network. I’ve got the people.” I don’t think you can go into it or I think it’s more difficult to go into it and then try to do those things, right? So as I was saying, you don’t wanna do too much of building the plane while it’s in the air. Any groundwork you can lay beforehand is worthwhile, and it’s worth even just taking those investigatory steps and thinking through, “Okay, so what would that look like? Am I gonna have an office? Am I not gonna have an office? Will I partner up with somebody else, or will I do it myself? Am I gonna hire staff, and when will I hire staff? What do I need to be a lawyer? What do I not need? What’s a nice to have? What’s a must-have?”

Going through that checklist, going through that process, I think will make it real for people. And by going through it, I think they’ll decide whether or not it’s something they actually wanna do.

Jonathan Hawkins: All right. So I like to ask sometimes the inversion question. So [00:42:00] is there anything that you’ve done in the first two years that you wish maybe we should not have done that, or maybe that you eventually did and you said maybe we should have done that from the beginning?

Vivek Tata: I think we trended in the right direction on this, but certainly trusting professionals, non-lawyer professionals to do their job is, I think it’s one of the best decisions we made, and I think, you know, the earlier you do it, the better, right? I have two of my partners focus on recruiting. They do a great job. But having a recruiting person in-house has been great. As you know, we’ve grown really fast, and we couldn’t do it without having you know, folks who can focus their time on those activities. I think that’s really, really important.

I think the other thing is absolutely thinking about business development and how you’re gonna grow the client base but also thinking very carefully about people.

I think the hardest thing I thought would be business development, and I’m gratified to, to say that it has not been. The thing that has actually been hardest, and we’ve– I think we’ve done a great job at this, but it has been very hard, is maintaining that quality bar and getting people in who are really [00:43:00] excellent.

Because you have a lot of applicants, you have a lot of people who want to move, but you have to make sure that the fit is right. And so I think focusing on that early is really important if you’re trying to build a firm that’s bigger

Jonathan Hawkins: I think that is so true. I’ve had the exact same experience. I think some people out there pro- may disagree, but I think it’s easier to get clients than it is to get the right people in your firm. That’s the hardest part. And so I, I tell people, I, this sort of become my, my mantra, always be recruiting.

So you just always, always… You treat recruiting like business development. You just always wanna be, have your eye out for th-that person, you’re like, “That person would be great to work with,” or whatever, ’cause the timing is never perfect when you first meet them. But if you stay in touch, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re building the relationship when the time comes.

You want them to think of your firm, at least be on the list. The worst thing is when you bump into somebody that you really liked, you know, you hadn’t seen them in a year and they’ve moved, and you’re like, “Why didn’t you call me?” Like

Vivek Tata: Absolutely. Yeah, you wanna make [00:44:00] sure that, that people know that you’re looking and that you have all the… And sometimes even if you’re not, that that really, that superstar is gonna come to you because they know you or you’ve been, yeah, as you said, working on, working on getting them

Jonathan Hawkins: And that, that’s the other thing. If, I have found too, if you find the superstar and they are making a move, you, you will find a space. You should find a space for that person

Vivek Tata: Absolutely right. Absolutely

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, cool, man. This has been fun. Anything we haven’t talked about? Have you… Let me ask this. Are, are you an entrepreneur at heart?

I know you were in business before. Is this very different? Or s- just if you look back in your life, this was sort of a natural thing that was probably gonna happen

Vivek Tata: No, I, I don’t think I am one of those, those people. I think you know, I know that there are folks who go out and start their own firm, and that’s– they were gonna do that from day one. And I, I know people like that in law school, right? And you could, you could– I could have told them in first year, “You’re gonna go out and start your own firm.

It’s gonna be a smashing success. You’re– ’cause you just have that, you know, mentality.” I don’t think I am that person. And I think the great thing about [00:45:00] starting a firm has been that you don’t need necessarily to have that constant itch of wanting to start something as long as you find the right people and, and it makes sense as a business.

The great thing about law is that once you’re trying cases, once you’ve got your binders and you’re, you’re busy, you’re working, it stops feeling like a startup very quickly. I can’t remember the last time that I thought, “My goodness, we’re so new.” I feel like I’ve been doing this at this firm for years now, and it’s been two years.

Because once you’re in it, once you’re in the cases, once you’re looking at documents and writing briefs, all that goes away

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Well, Vivek, man, this has been fun. Thanks for coming on. I’m glad we got introduced. I’m really impressed with what you guys have built already and are building, and excited to see the continued growth, whatever that means for you guys. If somebody wants to get in touch with you, maybe they’re interested in learning from you or maybe applying for a job or sending you a case, what’s, what’s the best way?

Vivek Tata: Just shoot me an email. It’s on the website [00:46:00] vtata@elsberglaw.com. I’m always happy to, to hear from folks, and this has been really wonderful. Thanks so much for having me on. It’s been great.

Jonathan Hawkins: Awesome. well, stay tuned, folks. We’ll see where they are, see if they’re moving, growing more, five times, another five times in two years or, or not.

Vivek Tata: Thanks so much, Jonathan

Jonathan Hawkins: All right, see ya.

OutroUpdatedWebsite-1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the founding partner podcast. Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to stay up to date on the latest episodes. You can also connect with Jonathan on LinkedIn and check out the show notes. With links to resources mentioned throughout our discussion by visiting www.lawfirmgc.com. We’ll see you next time for more origin stories and insights from successful law firm founders.