Jonathan Hawkins: [00:00:00] Going in, you had a vision of what you were gonna do, premium fees, exceptional work. So I know the answer to this. You leave the DA’s office to start firm. You don’t have any clients that are coming with you on day one. So what did you do to go get clients?

Nana Knight: So I was sitting in my office I think I was about a week in, and of course there’s no calls. I’m like, okay, well just, you know, they’ll come. I’m pretty confident, you know God has a way of making things happen. So I was sitting in my office, I get a phone call and it’s this lady who’s looking for a criminal defense attorney, and she had found me through the bar website as a criminal law board certified specialist and the California bar maintains a list of all the attorneys that are certified in the field of criminal law, and she was smart enough to go find somebody who’s board certified, which is akin to being a board certified doctor, I guess, for lawyers in California.

And so she called me, she said, you know, she’s looking to hire somebody really urgently for a [00:01:00] domestic violence case. You know, we spoke and she’s like, I really wanna meet you. And so she and her husband, she was my first client. They came in and I was like, this is a really good sign. And then it just took off from there. Got a lot of referrals from colleagues from the state bar. And of course I joined Ben Glasses. Brian and Ben have been really instrumental in helping set the foundation for the firm the right way. Doing the marketing the right way. And you know, we just took off running.

Welcome to the Founding Partner Podcast. Join your host, Jonathan Hawkins, as we explore the fascinating stories of successful law firm founders. We’ll uncover their beginnings, triumph over challenges, and practice growth. Whether you aspire to launch your own firm, have an entrepreneurial spirit, or are just curious about the legal business, you’re in the right place.

Let’s dive [00:02:00] in.

Jonathan Hawkins: Welcome to Founding Partner podcast. I’m your host, Jonathan Hawkins. This is a podcast where I get to interview founding attorneys, hear about their journeys, and hopefully they can tell me all the things I’m doing wrong so I can do better in my firm. So I’m glad to welcome to this episode Nana Knight.

She is a criminal defense lawyer in San Jose, California, and she’s got a really cool firm name with Night Justice. I love that. So Nana, welcome to the podcast.

Nana Knight: Thanks, Jonathan. Thanks for having me.

Jonathan Hawkins: So why don’t you lay out sort of, give a brief description of your firm so you know, how many people are there, how many lawyers are you, virtual, hybrid, sort of a, a sort of a high level overview of, of the setup of your firm.

Nana Knight: Criminal defense firm. We’re based in San Jose, California. We’ve got two attorneys. My law partner, who also happens to be my husband, Chris Knight. So we’re the only two, we’re the only attorneys in the firm. We’re in the process of hiring a third [00:03:00] attorney. We got three support staff, a paralegal.

We just hired another paralegal, and we have somebody working for us part-time. So we have a physical office, you know, with a criminal defense firm. We tend to meet with our clients in our, not in our house. And Chris is semi virtual using the office as needed. We’re very flexible.

Jonathan Hawkins: So we’re gonna get into your background and all that, but your firm, you started, it’s not that old, right? Right. It’s, you started it. Really, maybe less than two years ago, or

Nana Knight: It is a young firm. It’s a young firm. I launched it in 2024, January of 2024, and yeah, we just hit our two year mark

year.

Jonathan Hawkins: But you’ve had a lot of growth. It sounds like you’re already hiring more people, so that’s cool. So I want to get into that, but. Before we do, let’s, let’s back up a little bit. Before you started your firm you started out, and correct me everywhere I’m wrong, you just correct me. But I think you [00:04:00] started out your legal career as a JAG lawyer.

Is that correct?

Nana Knight: I was a JAG lawyer on active duty in the Air Force, started out prosecuting cases. The first month I was activated as a jag. I got my first big sexual assault case, and it’s, you know, it’s like baptism by fire. Just go figure it out. We’ll help you, but this, you own it. And that’s really shaped how I approach my cases, my work ethic.

And it’s, it’s how we run our firm.

Jonathan Hawkins: So what led you to go the JAG route versus something else?

Nana Knight: So it’s not a dramatic story. Chris was a cadet in serving in the army in law school at uc, Berkeley. When I met him, he was gearing up to go to the Jag Corps in the Army and he said, look, this is a good. You know, you should consider doing this because if we end up getting married, we’re going to be you know, traveling or PCSing as we call it, permanent change of station every couple years.

You can’t take the bar at [00:05:00] every jurisdiction. And I looked into all the branches. I really liked the mission of the Air Force. I love airplanes. I love the mission. I said, you know, this is the only. The only branch I’m gonna apply to, unfortunately, I got selected and it was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made in my life.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, that’s cool. I wanna get to that. So my, my nephew is about to graduate from the Air Force Academy here in. A few months. very cool. he’s ready to get out.

Nana Knight: Yeah, I was actually stationed at the Air Force Academy. I was a, the chief of military justice advising, the three star general, who’s the superintendent. So very familiar with the cadet life.

Jonathan Hawkins: So tell me, you mentioned you, you just started and they said, here, go try this case. So, so how was it, so you graduate law school, you apply, you get accepted, you show up and, and sort of how is it, what, how do you get. Sort of implement it or integrate it into the service

Nana Knight: the officership.

Jonathan Hawkins: you do it. Yeah.

Nana Knight: Yeah, so you, I came in with a [00:06:00] professional degree, obviously as a, as an officer first lieutenant. And then six months later, unless you do something really bad, it’s an automatic promotion to captain. But I did go to the. Through the officer training school in Montgomery, Alabama.

I’ve spent a long time in, in Alabama going through the officer training, and then I got sent to McCourt Air Force Base in the state of Washington. And then I went back for what we call JSOC, the JAG officer, staff Officer school. It’s kind of like law school mini, where they train jags on military law.

So I went back to Alabama for that.

Jonathan Hawkins: So I grew up in Alabama. So I’ve spent a lot of time in Alabama too, and I’ve been to that Air Force base outta, outta Montgomery, and

Nana Knight: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: to go take a deposition of somebody in there one time. And I remember, so the, the, you know, the prison camp, I’ll call it in the back. Th which is where I had to go.

And I, and you know, there’s [00:07:00] no fences, there’s no barbed wire. There’s just like the signs that just say, don’t go beyond this point. And right across the street there’s this golf course that I thought that was like a hilarious but torture too. You know, you got these white color criminals in there and then everybody’s playing golf right in front of ’em.

But, but yeah, so, so, yeah. That’s cool. Alright, so you, you go in there and then you’re immediately trying cases.

Nana Knight: Yeah, first case was a, a sexual assault case. Pretty serious charges and I just learned to figure things out. I had a lot of assistance with the more senior jags who guided me through the process, but I was a, the trial attorney and it was my case and I owned it, and we got a great result. My very first court martial, so I’ll always remember that case.

Jonathan Hawkins: So, so you’re first chair, you don’t have anybody

Nana Knight: You get a se, you get a second chair, you get a senior JAG who comes in for the actual trial. [00:08:00] But everything has to be prepared. All the witnesses have to be prepared. The opening statement, all the direct cross-examination, all that stuff has to be done. And the senior JAG just comes in. They technically first chair, but, and they’re there just in case something goes awry.

But it was my case to build up and work up and investigate and you know, get it ready for trial.

Jonathan Hawkins: That’s cool. Scary, but cool. And I’ll say, you know, nowadays in most scenarios, lawyers just don’t get to track cases like that. That’s the old days, pretty much.

Nana Knight: I have noticed that trend. Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: So how long, how long were you active in the jag?

Nana Knight: I was on active duty for four years. Chris and I surfed together. We got co-located, he stayed obviously with the Army, so they were really nice to co-locate us together at McCord at Fort Lewis. And then we went to Colorado Springs. I was at the Air Force Academy. Chris was at Fort Carson, and so we did four years active duty.

We finished out our initial commitment, got [00:09:00] out and became. Deputy District Attorneys working together in the same office, parallel careers.

Jonathan Hawkins: So basic. So, so before we leave the Jag, how, how many cases have you counted up? How many cases you got to try?

Nana Knight: I had a few, definitely over 10 felony cases and I did switch assignments. So the JAG Corps really tries to expose you to different areas of the law. You know, I was the chief of operations law. I was chief of adverse actions. I did civil law, so you kind of rotate. And when I got out I was the chief of military justice at the Air Force Academy, overseeing all the investigations and all the courts martial advising commanders on UCMJ matters. So.

Jonathan Hawkins: That’s cool. Okay, so you leave that and then you go to DA’s office. Is this in San Jose or somewhere else?

Nana Knight: This was in Fresno actually, we settled in Fresno, kind of a halfway point between the Bay Area and la, which is where Chris and I are from, originally from Los Angeles. And so our kids were born in, [00:10:00] in Clovis, very close to Fresno. And we were das there. We, we went up really fast in terms of the assignments and the promotions, and I was on the domestic violence team.

Doing trials and I really got to learn that area of the law really well. I really liked it.

Jonathan Hawkins: And so I guess at some point you decided I wanna try private practice. Take me through the evolution there.

Nana Knight: Yeah. So we were, I was a DA. In Fresno, and then we moved to Monterey County. Nicer weather, just beautiful. And I, I was doing gang crimes, violent shootings, assaults and, and homicide cases. And I realized, you know, this is great. I love criminal law, but can I monetize? Skills where, you know, I could test my entrepreneurship and, you know, see if I could put all the leadership skills, all, all the management skills that the military has taught me for, and use it [00:11:00] for my, for my firm and see what happens there.

And I knew I would, I would be successful. So I was pretty confident. I don’t know why, but I was, and I was like, you know what? I’m just gonna do this, and if it doesn’t work out, I can always go back and you know, get a government job. It’s, you know, and, but I haven’t looked back. It was actually, it not that difficult for me.

It was a big risk because, you know, you become reliant on your, you know your stable paycheck every month. So not having that was a little unnerving, but once you have the confidence. To kind of go out on your own and, and, and not be afraid. I think it pays off.

Jonathan Hawkins: So, so you had this desire, you wanted to try it out. Some people have that, but they never do anything about it. And some people say, okay, I’m gonna do it, but just not yet. And they’re just waiting for. Quote unquote, the right time. Did you have any issues with that or you did you decide and you’re like, we’re doing it.

I’m going, boom [00:12:00] or take, take me through that a little bit.

Nana Knight: Yeah, so the idea popped into my head. I’m like, you know, I’m looking at all these defense attorneys. They’re charging 20, 30, 40, $50,000 for a case that’s the same case that I’m working on, you know? And they get to run their own firm. They get to pick their own cases. They get to create something that they can feel proud of.

And I was like, why can’t I, why can’t I do this myself? And so the idea popped in my head and I thought about it and I talked to, of course, Chris. I’m like, I really wanna do this. And he was extremely supportive. He’s like, go ahead. And so I was very confident going into it. You know, initially I even, you know, thought to myself, my business model’s gonna be, I’m gonna charge premium fees, but I’m gonna provide exceptional service.

And that’s kind of guided me throughout this whole process of building my business and my firm. And that’s kind of been the overall, you know, framework.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I [00:13:00] like that. Going in, you had a vision of what you were gonna do, premium fees, exceptional work. So I know the answer to this. You leave the DA’s office to start firm. You don’t have any clients that are coming with you on day one. So what did you do to go get clients?

Nana Knight: So I was sitting in my office I think I was about a week in, and of course there’s no calls. I’m like, okay, well just, you know, they’ll come. I’m pretty confident, you know God has a way of making things happen. So I was sitting in my office, I get a phone call and it’s this lady who’s looking for a criminal defense attorney, and she had found me through the bar website as a criminal law board certified specialist and the California bar maintains a list of all the attorneys that are certified in the field of criminal law, and she was smart enough to go find somebody who’s board certified, which is akin to being a board certified doctor, I guess, for lawyers in California.

And so she called me, she said, you know, she’s looking to hire somebody really [00:14:00] urgently for a domestic violence case. You know, we spoke and she’s like, I really wanna meet you. And so she and her husband, she was my first client. They came in and I was like, this is a really good sign. And then it just took off from there. Got a lot of referrals from colleagues from the state bar. And of course I joined Ben Glasses. Brian and Ben have been really instrumental in helping set the foundation for the firm the right way. Doing the marketing the right way. And you know, we just took off running.

Jonathan Hawkins: I love that story. I’m curious. She looked at the list. You’re not the only board certified criminal lawyer, so why did she choose you? Do you even know?

Nana Knight: I think it was my last name.

Jonathan Hawkins: Really?

Nana Knight: She even said that. She’s like, you know, I found your name. Knight is such a good. I think she said it’s such a regal name. I really liked that last name. And then you know, when she spoke with me, she learned about [00:15:00] my prosecutorial experience and the fact that I was a DV prosecutor. She’s like, this is perfect.

So

Jonathan Hawkins: That’s cool. So, you, you mentioned Ben and all the marketing things you learned before you came across Ben, had you been experimenting with marketing efforts and what were those?

Nana Knight: So I signed up with Ben simultaneously when I was opening up my firm and I, you know, I’m not the typical type of. A lawyer that I think Ben and Brian are looking for somebody who’s just starting out. And Brian even asked me, he’s like, you know, we’re, we’re not here to help you set up your firm and teach you the basics.

And I said, you know, I understand. I can handle that. I just need to learn. How to set up the culture in my firm, marketing and all just the foundational aspects of the firm the right way. So that way I’m not going back and, you know, fixing errors and it’s the best decision I [00:16:00] made, you know, starting out. But it worked out really well.

So I’ve learned a ton from GLM and I’ve implemented the, a lot of the things that they’ve taught me, and that’s why I feel like we’re, you know, two years in, we’re we’ve hired so many people and Chris was able to quit his da job and join me as a, as a full fledged partner in the firm.

Jonathan Hawkins: So let’s talk about that. I’m gonna circle back to the marketing, but let’s talk about that. When did Chris come on?

Nana Knight: He joined me in August of last year.

Jonathan Hawkins: And so I guess you had so much work, you’re finally like, look, you gotta leave. Or had he been chomping at the bit to join you?

Nana Knight: He saw, you know, of course he’s supporting me behind the scenes, which I’m, you know, always always be grateful for him for supporting me. But he saw how much creativity and fun I was having building something that was my own. And, you know, there came a point where I was like, Chris, I can’t handle all these cases.

You gotta help me out. And he took the risk of quitting [00:17:00] his, you know, six figure salary job with the Santa Clara District Attorney’s office to join me. And for some reason, the, the cases, the caseload just, I, I feel like doubled or even tripled after he joined. And we were concerned initially, it’s like, are we gonna have enough cases for two attorneys? Yeah, our livelihood depends on this business now. But we were fortunate enough that cases just kept coming, you know, very well qualified clients, and I’m just hoping this doesn’t stop.

Jonathan Hawkins: It is funny how that happens. it happens a lot. It’s happened to me. It’s. You can call it what you want, but it’s, it’s amazing. You know, I say that when you ask the universe, it usually listens and it, it starts sending you stuff.

Nana Knight: Yeah definitely.

Jonathan Hawkins: So now that your husband’s with you, how do you guys split responsibility for the firm stuff? ‘Cause you’ve got obviously case work, client work, you’ve got intake and operations, you’ve got market, all the stuff. How do you divide those responsibilities?

Nana Knight: So [00:18:00] Chris and I work really well together. We have very different styles but the work ethic is the same. You know, Chris was on the sexual assault team at Santa Clara DA’s office, so he gets the sex cases. Just because he’s just, you know, that’s his area and I’ve done a lot of sex cases too, but he’s the perfect person to handle those.

But it’s, it’s whoever is the right fit for the client. In terms of personality, sometimes clients want to work with me specifically, they ask for me by name and sometimes they don’t care. I think they really like the husband and wife dynamic. They like the fact that they get two lawyers to strategize and you know, help them with their case.

So it’s based on availability in a way, but I’m the one who’s kind of like the face of the firm. I handle all the marketing. Chris is kind of more behind the scenes and that’s what he prefers to be behind the scenes. I love the marketing. He doesn’t like marketing as much as I do.[00:19:00]

Jonathan Hawkins: It is fun. I love it too.

Nana Knight: I love it too.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, let’s go back. Okay, so you, you, you joined GLM and you know, I’m in there too and you know, they have. It’s sort of a program. They have some things they, you know, I call ’em the sort of their foundational, the, the cornerstone stuff. And we can get into some of that too. But, you know, with marketing, there’s so many things you can do.

I mean, there’s so many things you can do. And I know a lot of lawyers, especially when they’re first starting out, like you were, you get overwhelmed. You like there’s a hundred things I can do, and you see these other lawyers that are doing all these things, you’re like, I gotta do ’em all. But you can’t. So how did you start to attack your list of items?

What did you do first, and then what did you do second? I’m curious how you stacked it.

Nana Knight: Yeah, so the very first thing I did when I first, started the firm is I created my Google business profile and I started getting reviews from people who know me, who you know, know my work. And [00:20:00] that got me on Google’s radar and people started calling me finding me through Google, and they still do a lot of our clients find us online.

And from there, you know, started doing other digital marketing stuff, SEO for my website. And then I started doing videos working with authority brand. We put out these educational entertaining videos on various criminal defense topics. The most recent thing that I did was newsletters with Kia Arian.

And I love writing. I love that newsletter project and then the YouTube channel is probably the most exciting thing that I’ve done.

Jonathan Hawkins: I do wanna talk about YouTube but we’re gonna, we’re not gonna go there first. So let, I want to go back to the SEO. There’s a lot of people out there selling SEO. You know there’s, you do it yourself. There’s all these ways to go about it. How did you do that? Did you start [00:21:00] doing it yourself, or did you hire somebody? How’d you know who to hire?

Nana Knight: So, you know, one of the great things about GLM is that they have vendors that they recommend, and I reached out to Ben and Brian and they recommended this company that I work with, you know, nifty. And they’ve been pretty good. I’ve been very happy with them. Of course, my strategy is not to rely on one source of, you know. Lead one. Lead source and just diversify as much as I can. And right now I’m focused on community outreach for this year.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. That’s another thing that I personally have experienced. Everybody that’s done this for a while experience it. it’s, when you start to stack these things, it’s not, at least in my experience, it’s not a one plus one equals two. It’s usually a one plus one equals two and a half, and then you add a third, and then it equals.

Four. It’s just sort of this multiplier effect. ’cause everything starts working with each, with each other. And so let, maybe that’s a good segue into the, the YouTube [00:22:00] videos, because those also have a lot of SEO juice. I mean, everybody says YouTube’s the second most searched website in the world. How did you, how did you go down the path of videos?

’cause I know myself speaking. There’s a lot of inertia, at least with me, to get over the hump to, because I’m like, I need to do video. I need to do video, but I just never do it. So what pushed you to actually get going and, and I did watch some of your videos and they’re, they’re quite good. You’re good at it.

Nana Knight: Thank you, It’s,

Jonathan Hawkins: did you

Nana Knight: still learning. you know, it’s a, there’s a, I think, natural discomfort when you first start out to be in front of the camera and to, you know, stare at the camera. There’s no one there, you’re just talking to directly to the camera. So I had to overcome that. I’m still learning and, and trying to improve the presentation, but I wanted to do YouTube when I first started my.

My business. I, I thought that that’s kind of like a area that’s ripe for, you know, leverage for attorneys. And I am currently working with Jeff [00:23:00] Hampton with YouTube Rainmakers. And he, he does, he has this great, you know, service and we’ve, I’ve consulted with him. He’s kind of shown me the ins and outs of YouTube.

You know, marketing. So very instrumental in helping me launch the, the channel, and we’re pretty consistent in putting up video.

Jonathan Hawkins: So the videos you put out, what’s the length, sort of the average length?

Nana Knight: So I try to make it 10 minutes at least, you know depending on the script, I, the ideal time is 15 to 20 minutes, but sometimes you just, you can’t really. Make it at that length when you’re actually videotaping. But that’s, that’s the preferred to the audience engagement and always just kind of cre creating curiosity throughout the video to keep the audience engaged and the retention rate high.

So

Jonathan Hawkins: So how long have you been doing the videos at this point?

Nana Knight: I think we started in April of last year.

Jonathan Hawkins: So not even a year yet. So as you look back [00:24:00] at your April videos from now, can you see the improvement? Can you see?

Nana Knight: I wanna say yes. I definitely see I’m a little more comfortable in front of the camera versus the first time I did the, my first video. I can definitely see a difference in, in my, you know, comfort levels. And you, you just kind of improve from there. You know, you get more comfortable. You just have to be consistent.

And it is a lot of work. Scripting, getting the equipment set up, the lighting is really important. So I like you for a long time I wanted to do it, but it was just too difficult to get all, all that stuff, all the logistics in place.

Jonathan Hawkins: So this may be a hard question, but I, I’m really curious about it. As you look over the last, I guess, 10 months or so, now that you’ve been doing the videos, I’m sure you’re tracking the metrics and you’re seeing the stats and all these things. Do you see a very clear increase the longer that you’ve had, I guess the more you [00:25:00] stack in your video on your channel, does it just, do you see the consistent growth?

Is it jumps and starts. I’m curious how that, like if I was gonna start building one, now I’m trying to set my expectations and, and you know, a lot of people will start a project and then give up before it’s really working and I’m trying to figure out how long does it really take before you really start say, okay, this is working.

Nana Knight: I would say give it at least nine months, but be consistent with releasing at least one video per week and make sure, yeah, there, there’s a technique to this. You definitely wanna describe the video and use all the SEO keywords within the description of the topic. You are. Covering in your video because that really reinforces the SEO and I.

I feel like we’ve had a surge in potential new clients finding us through Google because of my videos.

Jonathan Hawkins: Okay, so the next question here is you’re doing all this marketing, it’s clearly working. How [00:26:00] do you balance getting the client work done with doing all the other stuff?

Nana Knight: That’s always the challenge, right? I think time management is really critical. We run our firm like a military operation using all the tools that we’ve learned in the military, time management, delegation, you know, we wanna be very surgical with our time and the things that we do as lawyers.

So our paralegal handles a lot of the work before it gets to us, and she does all the work that, we only come in, Chris and I only work on the case when there’s a lawyer that’s needed to do, to get the product out the door. So she handles the preparation, the drafting of the initial, you know, motion.

So it’s really, really helpful. It’s very surgical. We just come in and we give it a review, we change things, and then we file the motion. For example, of course, the paralegal’s not gonna be able to appear for you in court, but and we do a lot of court [00:27:00] appearances because we are criminal defense attorneys.

And that’s just the nature of our practice. So it’s tough. But you know, the time management skills that I’ve learned at GLM and combined with what the military has taught me, I think we’re doing okay on that front. There’s always room for improvement.

Jonathan Hawkins: And so you do all this marketing, it’s working, it’s generating calls. How do you handle the intake? Do you have people that handle that or do you do that? How do you handle that?

Nana Knight: So we have an intake person, a dedicated full-time, and she’s virtual based in the Philippines, and she’s handling the intake with a script. With you know, training and that’s the person that we’re using. And we’re also using Smith AI as a backup, as a overflow. And Smith has been great. And we get notifications.

Chris and I do the sales with the client after they’ve had an opportunity to talk to the intake person for viable PNCs. Were the ones actually closing the sale.

Jonathan Hawkins: And so with the YouTube [00:28:00] videos. Those go everywhere in the world. So do you get calls from outside your area and how do you handle those?

Nana Knight: Yes, we do. We get very interesting legal issues that have nothing to do with criminal law from, many other states in the country. Funny story. We just had this young man who drove all the way from Napa, who had seen one of my videos on TikTok, and he came looking for me without calling, without an appointment.

So that was interesting to tell him, you know, that we can’t help him with his legal issue and appointments are required to speak with the attorney in person. But yes, it’s, it’s quite entertaining sometimes with some of the legal issues that we see from people calling us.

Jonathan Hawkins: So you mentioned TikTok. So are what, what socials are you on other than

Nana Knight: So, yeah, so we do Instagram you know, working with Authority brand, Facebook or Meta. We definitely TikTok and YouTube shorts. Those are huge. YouTube [00:29:00] shorts, Facebook, I think that’s it. And LinkedIn, of course, LinkedIn would put out the videos on LinkedIn as well.

Jonathan Hawkins: All right, for the YouTube shorts. Do you have, do you need to go in there and embed certain text for SEO purposes, or do you just post the videos?

Nana Knight: I think it’s, you know, I don’t do the text for the shorts. And maybe so that’s something I should look into. But I know we definitely do SEO optimized descriptions for the longer videos. I’m not so sure about the shorts. I don’t think we do those for the shorts.

Jonathan Hawkins: curious ’cause I, I have started posting a lot of shorts from these podcasts and I, I do no SEO texts, none of that. So I’m curious if I need to start doing that, but. May

Nana Knight: Maybe we both do.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. So for, for others, including me who are thinking about the YouTube, what, do you have any advice on, you know, getting started, going down that path?

Nana Knight: You know, people say just get started, but it’s not that easy. Okay. You have to have the right equipment. I’m not saying go invest in like, the most [00:30:00] expensive equipment you need. Good, definitely good lighting. Right. And can you use your iPhone? Yes, I have a camera. I prefer to use a ca, a camera a professional camera in my studio. But you have to have a plan in place. And I think the starting point is analyzing what kind of cases you wanna get more of and writing scripts along those topics and those clients that you wanna obtain. And that takes some thought and some effort. So you can’t just get started, you have to have a plan.

So that would be my advice to somebody who’s trying to, you know, thinking about venturing into this area.

Real quick, if you haven’t gotten a copy yet, please check out my book, the Law Firm Lifecycle. It’s written for law firm owners and those who plan to be owners. In the book, I discuss various issues that come up as a law firm progresses through the stages of its growth from just before starting a firm to when it comes to an end.

The law firm lifecycle is available on Amazon. Now, [00:31:00] back to the show.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, the other thing that’s striking about. As I listened to you talk number one, you, you, you had a plan on the marketing. You, you went in, I’m gonna attack this. But not only that, you, you hired experts to help you probably accelerated all of it by, by hiring people instead of you trying to fumble around figuring these things out, which I think is huge.

Not everybody has the. Maybe the cash to do that. So do you have any advice for people out there? Sort of the balance of do it yourself, try to figure it out, or go hire the expert, or how do you figure out when it’s time to hire the expert?

Nana Knight: I think just focusing on one marketing, if you, if you wanna try one marketing strategy. Go in on that. And for me, I would prefer to pay somebody who does this and does it well versus trying to figure this out on my own because my time is extremely valuable and I can spend that, you know, getting new clients and [00:32:00] servicing my clients, you know, the production aspect of things.

But it’s, it’s about investment and investing your you know, your business funds in the right way. Focus on one thing at a time. If you try to do everything at the same time, I think that could backfire.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Oh yeah. So you mentioned, we’ve mentioned a lot of the things you’re doing, but I think you’re. About to come out with or just came out with a book

Nana Knight: Yes, I did come out with a book, the Night Advantage, A Practical Guide to Domestic Violence Charges. A big number of our cases involve domestic violence here in the Silicon Valley, and this book is written for folks who are caught up in the criminal justice system for the first time. Of their lives, and it gives them an opportunity of course if they work with the lawyer and come to us on time to possibly get their case not filed.

So that’s, that’s one thing that we do really well when we intervene early on when a person has been [00:33:00] arrested or is under investigation. This book talks about, I actually talk about it in the book about how we can potentially prevent charges from not being filed. And we’ve had great success with that.

Jonathan Hawkins: So how are you gonna get the book distributed? What’s sort of the plan? Somebody calls in or they see it in the internet. How do you get it in

Nana Knight: Yeah. So, so we’re still trying to figure out how to maximize. The value out of this book, we definitely give it to our clients who sign up with us and potential new leads who call us. I have the book on digits as well as in hard copy form. The consults that we do, they always get a copy of the book. And then for people that we talk on the phone, they, you know, with our lead nurturing system, they get a copy, the digital version of the book.

It helps build authority. It helps kinda. it helps us stand apart from the rest of the criminal defense attorneys in the area, but there’s a lot more ways to leverage the book, which I’m looking into, including maybe posting excerpts on [00:34:00] my website not necessarily as a landing page, but as a lead generation, lead magnet sort of asset.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, I, you know, I just came out in my book in October and it’s, it’s, you know, I think it’s great. You know, I can’t. I don’t think there’s been enough time yet for me to say, oh, it’s, you know, sunshine and rainbows and all this magic has happened. But, but I do think that it helps for sure. No. No one’s called me and said, I got your book, I gotta hire you.

Although I’ve heard those stories from other lawyers. So they said they hired me because they had my book. I haven’t had that yet. I’m hopeful that it’ll happen at some point, but,

Nana Knight: No, your book is great. I remember the presentation at the GLM conference last year, and I’m very excited to see all the benefits you’re going to get out of this book. It’s great. And you work with Mike, right? Mike Delan. Yeah. He’s

Jonathan Hawkins: Yep, yep. You know, that’s the other thing. Hire the experts. So it’s, you know, I had pushed around, I had this idea. And [00:35:00] I had, you know, I would, I’d spend a couple weeks, I’d get the, the outline and then maybe I’d start a chapter working some stories, and then I would get busy and it’d never get done, never get done, and then finally said, all right, I need to get somebody that’ll help me get this thing done.

So, and it got done. So,

Nana Knight: Yeah. No, it’s great. Great book.

Jonathan Hawkins: yeah. So, so you mentioned a minute ago that, did you say you have hired or you’re about to hire, or you’re thinking about hiring another attorney?

Nana Knight: We’re writing the job description for this attorney right now and figuring out the benefits and the salary package. And we’re gonna start actively recruiting and hoping we can get somebody who likes our firm, likes our values, who’s a good fit, you know we’re very particular in the way we run our firm. And so I’m really hoping we can find somebody who’s compatible.

Jonathan Hawkins: So when you served as a Jag, I assume you managed. A lot of attorneys and a lot of people,

Nana Knight: I did. Yes.

Jonathan Hawkins: so you, you know how to do it, so that’s [00:36:00] good. Did

Nana Knight: It’s helpful.

Jonathan Hawkins: did the, military train you and teach you these things or did you just sort of have to learn it on your own with him?

Nana Knight: Well, yeah, the military, I mean, you get world class training on leadership. And I feel like there’s a distinction between management and leadership. So they really teach you management skills. As well. So it’s a combination of leadership management and yes, you are in charge of a listed, you know, in the JA Corps paralegals that you are supervising and delegating and making sure they, they are, doing their job. Ultimately you’re responsible for the, the work product. But having that experience really helps me run my firm in the manage management of my personnel. And I feel like, you know, it’s gonna be it’s not gonna be as difficult to manage another attorney. Because of those skills, of course, you know, the personality is, is a big factor.

But you know, you want somebody who, that’s why I think it’s important for somebody to understand and appreciate and [00:37:00] accept our values, our mission, and how we handle our business and our firm.

Jonathan Hawkins: So as you begin to add these other lawyers, where do you see your role headed? Where, where do you want it to go?

Nana Knight: Ultimately, the ideal state for me is getting to a place where the firm doesn’t need me, where the firm runs itself, right? And so how do we get to that? That’s like the ideal state. You, there’s things you do, and I think it’s scaling up, scaling up the right way, the right investment in the firm, hiring the right people, the right culture.

So all those things kind of play into that, but that’s my ultimate goal. What I would love to do is just do the, be the face of the firm, do the community outreach, bring in the business, be the money maker for the business and have the attorneys you know, manage their cases. Oversee them, strategize.

’cause I love trial work. I love criminal law, so I don’t ever. [00:38:00] See myself not practicing law, but it would be nice to kind of be the overseer versus the boots on the ground. I have to go to court tomorrow. That type of, you know battle rhythm, I would say.

Jonathan Hawkins: I will say it’s, it’s hard to run a firm day to day and really take the time to grow a firm when you’re having to get called into court all the time. It’s just really

Nana Knight: It is. It is. It is challenging. Yes.

Jonathan Hawkins: So I, I know where, I know that feeling. So gimme a sense too. So California, huge, big state, lots of people, lots of crime, I’m sure.

And I don’t know about San Jose. I’m, I’m trying to get a sense for how big do you think your firm can get? Within your sort of geography now, and is it something that long term, maybe you’re like, maybe we need to expand geographically.

Nana Knight: So, Chris and I talk about this all the time. You know, we don’t see ourselves [00:39:00] becoming a huge, you know, firm, like a large firm. But maybe a medium size firm I think would be kind of the best way to, you know, envision based on what we’ve talked about, maybe start out with, you know, 10 attorneys and see how that works and run the firm with 10 attorneys and the appropriate support staff.

And then if we need to get bigger, then we kind of look into that. But I feel like, again, going back to what Ben and Brian have been teaching, it’s you have to make your business suit your needs, not the other way around. You’re not working. You know, for your firm, you have to kind of design your life in a way where your business is serving your needs and your priorities.

And so that’s always kind of like the anchoring principle when, whenever Chris and I sit down to talk about how big are we gonna grow, how are we gonna get there, you know? We’re not in a rush to grow super, super big with like 10, 20, 30 attorneys. We’re just gonna take one step at a time [00:40:00] and, and make the right decisions, not rush into it.

But now we’re at a point where based on our case volume, we do need a third attorney. So maybe that turns into four next year. Who knows? So that’s the excitement of building your own thing.

Jonathan Hawkins: It is, it’s, it is really exciting. I was talking to somebody ear earlier this week. Coincidentally, he’s in California as well, and their problem’s not. Getting the work, which it sounds like is not your problem either. At least you’re, you’re getting plenty of work. Their problem has now turned into they can’t find enough attorneys.

And so that’s sort of the constraint on the growth. And so it’s always a balance and it’s, you know, you’ve sounds to me, you’ve sort of figured out how to get the clients. And so the next stage is gonna be, all right, how do we get the right attorneys that fit in with. Like you said, your culture, your vision, your mission, your values, all that stuff,

Nana Knight: It’s a good problem to have.

Jonathan Hawkins: yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Nana Knight: having so much work that you can’t find attorneys for. But, you know, I always, I [00:41:00] always think that it’s better to take your time and not hire the very first person just to fill the need. You need to actually put in the time and the effort to get to know the person.

And fortunately, I’m, I’m, I’m pretty intuitive when I, when I talk to the new hires, I can tell this person’s gonna work out or this person’s not gonna work out. Fortunately, we’ll see.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’m sure you’ll figure it out. I mean, you figured out everything else so

Nana Knight: No, I don’t wanna say that, Jonathan.

Jonathan Hawkins: well. You’re, you’re good at figuring out how to get the right people in place to anyway. Yeah. You’ve

Nana Knight: Learn as you go.

Learn a really good job. I’ll say that. For, for a, a young firm, you, you’ve done a lot and you’re doing a lot. So for others out there who might wanna take sort of the accelerated path like you have, what sort of advice would you give them?

You know, I feel like confidence is really key. If you’re gonna branch out on your own, I would recommend getting experience first, right? So working at a firm or getting some experience for criminal defense attorneys at [00:42:00] the DA’s office or the public defender’s office, you have to have that experience.

And then just being really confident because if you’re not confident, clients. Sense that, and they’re not gonna pay you premium amounts. Right. And you don’t wanna undersell yourself either, because then you’re gonna be constantly working for very cheap. And I don’t know if that’s a, that’s a such a great thing in, you know, for a person to be doing that.

I think having the confidence, which I had because I had tried so many serious cases as a prosecutor murders, violent gang shootings, so I was pretty confident in my skills. I could quote a price with a straight face and, but also deliver. Also deliver. So and that just kind of building on that confidence and getting all these wins, which increases your confidence on, as a defense attorney now, and, and then you know, really enjoying what you do.

If you don’t enjoy what you do, then you’re not gonna really be successful, in my [00:43:00] opinion.

Jonathan Hawkins: So let’s talk about the confidence in the, in the premium. Fees. Fees. You know, there are attorneys out there. I’m curious what your experience has been where you say, all right, my fee is $50,000 for this, and the client says, I can’t afford it. Will you take 20? And the lawyer says, I need the money. Okay.

Yeah, I’ll do it. Did you ever have those sorts of problems early on before you really had built up the client base?

Nana Knight: You know, I can’t say that I didn’t when I first started out, but I quickly decided that I don’t wanna negotiate. I just don’t negotiate anymore. You know and I always tell, I ask when a potential new client calls, you know, I’m talking to them. I’m like, okay, so what are you looking for? Are you looking?

You ask about the prices. Are you looking for the cheapest attorney in town because you are probably gonna find somebody who’s cheaper. You know, I’m very honest. And I always say, have you looked at our credentials? Have you seen our bios on our website? Well, if you haven’t, I highly recommend you go and check it out so you can understand who you are talking [00:44:00] to.

I think that directness, that confidence, really believing in your own skillset and what you can offer to your clients that comes through and clients like that. They like that directness. I feel like, at least with me.

Jonathan Hawkins: So some of the examples you just gave are like really sophisticated sales techniques. Did you learn that? Are those natural? Did you learn those somewhere?

Nana Knight: No, I don’t have any. I mean, I didn’t really train to do sales. I’m just saying, and you know, in conversations, I’m bringing up points that just feel logical to me, and I think it all goes back to like really being confident in the services and your skillset that you’re offering. You know, the clients are getting a really good service.

But I’m gonna have to charge for my time and effort, you know? And I look, this is a business, it’s not a non-profit, right? And you know, people sometimes talk about, well, I like helping people. Yes. But you’re also in a [00:45:00] business, right? So charity starts at home. When I’m away from my kids working on cases for other clients, I wanna be well compensated because they’re gonna get really you know good results. Hopefully based on the fact of their case or the best outcome possible, I would say. But then, you know, I wanna also enjoy what I’m doing and create a win-win situation for the client and myself.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, I, I just, I really like what you, you know, you said what? Now if you want cheaper, there’s cheaper out there, you should go somewhere else. I, I think that is key. And, and maybe sometimes people say, yeah. I can tell you from my experience, the, and I’m sure every lawyer out there listening that has had this happen will say, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It’s when somebody on the front end tries to negotiate you down and they’re always, it’s always gonna be a problem later, whether it’s a bill later or. A decision in the case, whatever it is, I’m gonna be second guessing you. There are signs early on and, and sort of ask those questions and pose them. [00:46:00] You screen ’em out and if it’s really important to ’em, they’ll go somewhere else. So I

Nana Knight: I agree. Yeah, I definitely agree. I don’t negotiate and you know, some, some attorneys are offended when clients start negotiating. I don’t get offended. I, I just think we’re not the right fit, and I tell the potential caller that, and a lot of times. They come back and they say, well, we wanna go with you even though you’re not a cheap attorney.

We wanna go with you because we just feel confident in your ability to help us. So, but yeah, I agree. There’s a, there’s a technique to selling, but you have to stay true to your personality. I feel like when you’re talking to clients.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, so I, I get the sense that you have, you’re, you are a natural entrepreneur. I just, you have fallen into that or you just have always had that maybe, and that’s sort of the question, have you always had that?

Nana Knight: So

Jonathan Hawkins: you, were you, did you know you were always gonna do this?

Nana Knight: No, I didn’t. I actually never. [00:47:00] Tested myself in the business arena ever because I was a public servant for most of my career. And so that was one of the things I said to myself when I was opening up my law or thinking about launching my own law firm. You know, this is an untested area for me. I want to do this just to see if I could do well in it.

And I think I have the foundation for it. And so turns out I really like it. I love the business aspect of it. So I, I don’t know if I, I didn’t get training. I don’t have any business, formal business education, but it, I think it goes back to just the, your personality. If you’re a self-starter, you know, driven you know, ambitious.

I think that combined with the, with the effort that you put into your work, it, it pays off.

Jonathan Hawkins: So we’ve talked a lot about. All the good things that you’ve been doing and all the good things and the ways the firm has grown, but have there been any challenges over the last couple years in getting [00:48:00] this thing off the ground?

Nana Knight: So the challenge has as all as always, and in the foreseeable future will be how do I do all these things that I’m doing and doing well? ’cause I feel like if you’re not careful. Something is gonna fall through the cracks, right? You’re gonna get an unhappy client. And so my biggest thing with my clients is being extremely responsive.

That doesn’t mean that I pick up the phone every time they call. In fact, I implemented the very first rule that I learned from Brian and Ben is, you know, we’re not taking any unscheduled phone calls from clients. We just don’t. And so, I. Value my time. And I, I am extremely responsive and I teach my staff to be very responsive to clients.

So they’re not wondering what’s happening in their case with no updates. But that increases the, a little bit of the anxiety, you know, making sure. [00:49:00] You know, you respond to them on time, making sure that the, all the deadlines and the timelines are followed. So that combined with all the marketing things that I’m doing, I’m wearing many different hats, right?

So that’s the challenge. And I think the solution to that is delegation. Finding the right people to take things off your plate, delegating the right way, and making sure. The work gets done and having systems, and I think that’s the keys. The systems

Jonathan Hawkins: So I’ve talked to a lot of. Owners in growth mode, and, and they do delegate. They hire somebody, they delegate. Then all of a sudden their plate’s full again, and it’s, they never are not busy. It’s just, it’s, there’s always something else

Nana Knight: never ending.

Jonathan Hawkins: It never ends, which is, I mean, I sort of like it. I sort of like being busy.

Some people don’t. But How do you, how do you handle all the stuff coming at you? What, what sort of you know. Do you exercise? What, what do you do to sort of relieve some of the stress that is just coming at you from [00:50:00] clients, from, from the business, from, from your family, from all these things

Nana Knight: Yeah, I think definitely exercise and I have to exercise as I’m still in the reserve, so I have to meet the phy physical requirements. It’s part of the job description. Exercise really helps with mental clarity. It’s not just the fitness thing, but it’s also a mental thing, right? So and then taking time away to think you know, some alone time.

Just, just to think about what my priorities are, to recalibrate myself and think about where I’m going, why I’m doing these things. Just kind of like the more profound questions and connecting all of that. And then of course, the time management piece is a really important part of it because I do have two young kids and my.

My job is to be a good mom, and that’s my number one job, right? To be a present parent, a good mother for my kids. So they’re my priority and that comes with a lot of challenges because I’m doing all these [00:51:00] things right. So I don’t know how I do it sometimes, Jonathan. I really don’t, because I also have the reserve duty.

I’m still in the reserve, so I’m, servicing and, and, and defending you know, senior military officers who are accused of misconduct as a JAG officer. So that’s another part-time job that I have. So I’m doing a lot of things. There’s this thing called tres. That we call in the military, this like you know, positive stress that you have that is kind of like driving you to perform.

And I feel like when I don’t have that, that little bit of stress, that’s a good thing. I, I don’t function as well, so I need to kind of always be in that tress mode, fueling my performance and you know, having these goals when I hit my goals, that makes me really happy.

Jonathan Hawkins: Walk and feel the energy. I mean, I can feel the excitement as you talk about these things. And it’s, I mean, I get it. I a hundred percent get it. And it’s, you know, if it excites you, if you’re having fun, do it. And, and it, you clearly seem to be having fun [00:52:00] where you talk to some people and they, it’s Sunday night and they don’t even want to get up the next morning.

You know,

Nana Knight: It’s

not like that right now.

Jonathan Hawkins: yeah. Yeah. Well, cool. So we’re coming sort of to the end here, and I, I, I’ve, I’ve asked a little bit about this, but I do wanna sort of wrap it up with, you know. The, you know, a lot of our listeners out here are looking to grow their firm maybe start a firm and do you have any pieces of advice for them as they sort of embark on this journey?

Nana Knight: Yeah, definitely. You know, my advice would be talk to people before you, you decide to go on your own get advice, different perspectives and viewpoints, and then you make, you know, you, you make decisions about what you, how much of that you want to implement. But you know, if you’re asking, that’s such a broad question, right?

For, like, for marketing, I feel like Google reviews are. Really important to start collecting right away. Just to get, you know, cre create that social proof that you are a successful [00:53:00] attorney. And then just going out there and meeting attorneys and doing it the old fashioned way. Getting, you know, your, I guess, business cards out and then getting maybe you know. Being a speaker at events and community outreach, I feel like all of that is still very viable and not many attorneys do that because they rely on digital marketing. So to a lawyer who’s starting out, that’s what I would recommend. And I’m also involved in provisors a professional networking group, and I’ve met a lot of.

You know, referral partners through that organization, you know, join organizations, join the bar. The bar also sends referrals. So if you are thinking about doing it, have confidence and implement these things, and I think that, that, that could lead to some really good results.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, Nana, this has been great. I’ve enjoyed hearing all the things you’re doing and, and how it’s actually working. I mean, that’s the other key. You do the stuff and it [00:54:00] works. People just do the stuff. You just gotta take action. So, Nana, thanks for coming on. For people out there that want to get in touch with you, maybe, you know, ask you some questions offline or refer you a case or whatever, what’s the best way to find you?

Nana Knight: Yeah, so just our website has our contact information. Feel free to reach out. You can also find me on YouTube and with our phone number that’s everywhere on the videos. I’m not really difficult to find, so.

Jonathan Hawkins: All right. Well, thanks again. I appreciate it

Nana Knight: Thanks, Jonathan.

OutroUpdatedWebsite-1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the founding partner podcast. Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to stay up to date on the latest episodes. You can also connect with Jonathan on LinkedIn and check out the show notes. With links to resources mentioned throughout our discussion by visiting www.lawfirmgc.com. We’ll see you next time for more origin stories and insights from successful [00:55:00] law firm founders.