Jonathan Hawkins: [00:00:00] So along the lines of going outside the law and maybe learning from outside the law along this, you know, sort of thread we’re talking about let’s talk about EO or Entrepreneurs Organization. I know you’re involved with that. You know, there are lawyers that are involved in it, but it’s a lot of non-lawyers.

So tell me about your experience in that and what sorts of things have you learned from hanging out with non-lawyer business owners?

Bonnie Richardson: Yeah. Yeah. So I was dragged kicking and screaming into that organization ’cause I did not see myself as an entrepreneur. Plus, when I was looking at all ’em, I’m like, God, they’re younger. I don’t know. You know what? This is law, right? Again, I’m thinking I’m different. So it was really because of that friend, the one that took off all that time.

There were systems, for example, I think I had in my mind, I wanna be different than the law firm, big law firm. I’m not gonna have any meetings. I’m not gonna have all these stupid policies and stuff. It’s all just gonna be whatever, you know? And but it’s through them and seeing their experiences and the way they share it.

And none of it, it’s like, it’s not about networking. In order to get business from each other, it’s not [00:01:00] that, you know, I mean, sometimes that naturally happens. That’s not the point. The point is that you have people that you can bounce ideas off. You can see their failures. Like everybody has failures. You can also see their successes.

Welcome to the Founding Partner Podcast. Join your host, Jonathan Hawkins, as we explore the fascinating stories of successful law firm founders. We’ll uncover their beginnings, triumph over challenges, and practice growth. Whether you aspire to launch your own firm, have an entrepreneurial spirit, or are just curious about the legal business, you’re in the right place.

Let’s dive in.

Jonathan Hawkins: Welcome founding partner podcast. I’m your host, Jonathan Hawkins. This is a podcast where I get to interview founding attorneys and hear about their journeys and the cool stuff that they’re doing. And today’s guest is Bonnie Richardson. She is the founder, co-founder. We’ll find out Allegiant Law, which is I’ll call it a plaintiff [00:02:00] oriented firm in Portland, Oregon.

But there she has some nuance there, so I’ll let her explain the areas that she practices in. So, Bonnie, welcome to the show. I’m glad to have you. Why don’t you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your firm and sort of the things you cover.

Bonnie Richardson: Yeah. Well thanks for having me on here. I was just telling you, this is the first podcast for me, so, welcome or hello podcast world. So my firm is Allegiant Law. We named after a dead white person just saying. And we’re in Portland, Oregon. So this is I mean, it’s an interesting firm that we have here.

It’s pretty much all plaintiff’s side, like you were saying, really leaning heavily into that. But a little bit, it’s, it’s kind of an interesting setup because we do take cases that are, you know, not maybe traditionally one side or the other, but just really challenging, interesting, good justice oriented type cases.

[00:03:00] So, we’re kind of open to a lot of different stuff.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, that was one thing that struck me when we first met, that you do a lot of different things. It’s, I sort of got the impression of if it was an interesting case for an interesting cause. You’re like, Hey, we’ll take it. How do you decide what cases you’re gonna take and which ones you’re not gonna take?

Bonnie Richardson: That’s always a good question because it’s very important. I think, you know, as we go to a lot of CLEs and we learn about all of this, that you gotta have good opportunities where you are being careful about who you choose as your client, you know, and how you handle the client. So with that said yeah, I mean I think it sort of started off frankly with leaving a big firm and just kind of taking whatever conflicts there were.

You know, I don’t know if you’ve seen that, Jonathan with a lot of different people of Yeah, yeah. I’ll just take the conflicts from the big firm and that seems to set us off on our way. And so we sort of follow that to begin with [00:04:00] not knowing really what we were gonna get. And then over time, and so that was, that was 21 years ago, so over time it was like, okay, now we gotta be intentional.

I kind of wish I had read your book back then. Should I just put that up there?

Jonathan Hawkins: Nice plug. I like it. Thank you.

Bonnie Richardson: No, really. It’s a great book. I mean, I, I was like, whoa. Yeah. There’s some things in there that I, I thought, wow, this is very validating. And then some other things I thought, man, boy did I wish I had that from before. So yeah, I mean it’s, you can kind of see how these things go and especially if you’ve talked with a lot of people and you represented or counseled a lot of different law firms.

I mean, it’s interesting how you try to control how you evolve, but you sort of fall into things and then I think you try to pivot and control. That a little more. so our firm, it’s a claim of centered firm representing people, but a lot of times we represent businesses too because businesses can be harmed as well.

And yeah, and it’s, it’s kind of like, does it fit within our values? And [00:05:00] frankly, I think one of the things that I do, I don’t know if it’s something you would advise to do, but it’s something that we’ve done and has served us well, is I try to think about what is the future and what’s, like, what’s gonna be sort of that next thing that I want to do?

Like, what’s gonna be something that’s gonna be lucrative, right? I mean, we’re not, we’re not a nonprofit. We wanna make sure that we make money for all the people here. I always think about, I don’t just support my family, I support this entire family of, how many of us are here? 16 other people here? So, you know, and their families, it’s a big burden, right?

So, how do I support them with the future? What’s the, like, what’s something on the horizon? So that’s kind of how I’ve looked at all right, well, you know, how are we going to do that and does it align with our values? So

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I think that’s really smart. That’s a smart approach. Looking sort of what, what’s the next wave of, you know, zigging while people are zagging. So [00:06:00] then you’re set up for when it, when it comes, right.

Bonnie Richardson: yeah, yeah. And you know, having gone through that first massive economic downturn in 2007, eight and seeing a lot of firms sort of struggle with that and learning from that all the way to COVID, right? And, you know, a lot of things that come outta left field that you don’t know, there’s gonna be some stuff that might not even be affecting the nation that could come out and harm you, maybe some regulation that gets passed that really destroys your whole entire business plan.

So kind of coming up with backup. For that. So, you know, it’s now evolved to the point where it’s like, no, I mean this is something that I’ve always wanted to do and I’m sort of leaning into of just really representing, I kinda like to say like, the right side of things, you know, and, and is it an interesting case?

Is there a justice component to it? Is there something new and novel that maybe some other lawyers just find it really difficult to do that we can maybe turn it around to something else. So right now it’s like our big push recently is for plaintiff’s medical malpractice, just because I see [00:07:00] a big hole in that in the future.

And right now is the time I think that these cases are really doing quite well with people. You know, it really resonates with them about medical harm. I think they’re challenging, so it kind of fits all of the things that we wanna do. So that’s our current really big push. But I think what you found interesting too, which I think a lot of people like to ask me about.

And makes lawyers very, very nervous. But the general public love it when I say it. And that is that, I mean, this firm was built on and still is on our being hired to take on cases for legal malpractice against lawyers and law firms on behalf of clients. Yeah, it’s a huge part of what we do. And it’s something that I just sort of fell into.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, we’re gonna dive into that, but you’ve touched on a few things here and so I want to go back, go back, back, back and talk about sort of how you ended up in Portland. And so, it’s a [00:08:00] pretty interesting and circuitous a little bit type journey. And so let’s go back. So you grew up in Oklahoma.

There’s nobody in your family that is a lawyer, but you grew up, you know, small town, we’ll call it that, right? So, so take me back to Oklahoma. What was that like? Growing up there and then becoming a lawyer there?

Bonnie Richardson: Yeah. Well, do you hear my accent at all, Jonathan?

Jonathan Hawkins: No, but do you hear mine?

Bonnie Richardson: yeah, I do. I know immediately. Yeah, you can. Those of us that are sort of from the south is Oklahoma from the south. I mean, I,

Jonathan Hawkins: I don’t think that’s the south, that’s not

Bonnie Richardson: yeah, it’s not really the South, like, you know where you are, right? Atlanta, I, that’s, that’s the south. But people get kind of like, I know the difference between the Oklahoma, Texas, your south.

Yeah. It’s very different than Laia. Interesting. We won’t go into that whole culture thing. My parents aren’t from there, so they moved there. I think that’s my explanation of why I don’t have an accent as much. Sometimes it does come out around my friends, but yeah. So Oklahoma, [00:09:00] yeah, my parents went there, so my mother’s Japanese, she immigrated here from Japan.

Married a Navy guy. My dad, you know, he was there during Vietnam War in the military. And they’re kind of a success story because they’re still together. I moved them out here after my third child was born in 2008. And they, they’re here, yeah, still a part of my life every day. They’re very, very grateful to them.

And you know, and their story is actually far more interesting than mine. But, so when they moved to Oklahoma, which is very challenging, I will say for them although they may not say it. Very different time period in the seventies and eighties with basically a mixed race couple. They had three children.

I was the oldest and I grew up there. Not really fitting in, so kind of always, I guess a misfit. But I stayed in Oklahoma. I went to undergrad. I went to law school there. I was very lucky to get scholarships even in law school. And I [00:10:00] think I was just sort of a homebody, wanted to be close to my parents.

And, but the whole time that I’m there, I’m just feeling like there’s gotta be somewhere else that I can go. But nobody ever escapes this place, so I just always wanted to leave and go somewhere else. And the only time that I felt I could do it was after I graduated from law school, which is what I did.

I took off to anywhere but Oklahoma, anywhere. I was gonna either on one coast or the other. And we just kind of settled on Portland, Portland, Oregon.

Jonathan Hawkins: So, yeah. So how did you choose Portland? You didn’t know anybody there, right? You went there. Well, you didn’t know any lawyers for sure. I think you said. You said, but.

Bonnie Richardson: yeah, I mean, I didn’t know any lawyers at all, even going into law school. So not coming from a connected family in any way, or I guess maybe a family that had criminal troubles or, you know, even we had no contact with lawyers. And you know, in Portland, my husband’s [00:11:00] family had connections with people who lived here.

That’s a whole nother story, and that’s how we first heard about it. So that’s why we kind of decided to check it out. And when we came out here, we fell in love and still are in love with it. It’s the most amazing city. So everybody out there, Portland, it’s amazing. It’s so beautiful. The downtown has been cleaned up.

it’s incredible place to live.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I, I was looking, preparing for this, and I think it’s on your website. I think it’s where the, the river with the bridges. Is that on your website? It looks amazing. It looks amazing.

Bonnie Richardson: it’s right

Jonathan Hawkins: I was, I was looking at that thinking, I’m moving to Portland, so

Bonnie Richardson: It is. I mean, I have to come over one of those bridges that was built in the 18 hundreds every day. And I get to see bald eagles and you know, Osprey in the summer mostly. I’m looking at it now. Yeah, it’s an incredible place. Mountains and ocean. Yeah. So that’s really what drew us. But I knew nobody out here at all in the legal field.

Just [00:12:00] some, just some relatives of my husband’s. So that was nice.

Jonathan Hawkins: So how did you break in? You didn’t know any lawyers, you weren’t from there. You didn’t go to law school there. You moved there really fresh. How did you break into the legal scene?

Bonnie Richardson: Well, so. In law school, I did pretty well in law school. I was very connected with the dean and the other professors. I still keep up with most of the professors too, which is very interesting. And the dean was for a long time in private practice and had just become the dean, like in the last, I don’t know, a couple years you know, or last year I think, of my law school.

So, I went to him and I, I just said, do you know anybody in Oregon that I could contact? He was part of that American College of Trial lawyers. You probably, I don’t know if you heard of that, it’s, it’s kind of a club used to not have any women in it from Oregon until recently. But anyway he gave me the name of five people. And so when I arrived, I had to take the bar again. You know, I took the bar in [00:13:00] Oklahoma, started practicing there, immediately moved, came here 1998 and he gave me the name of, I think it was five people. And so I just started, yeah. Back in the day where you go and you meet with them, you know, call ’em up, can I come meet with you?

And quickly realizing, oh, shit, because they were really too high up. It was a federal judge, the president of the University of Oregon a very prominent female attorney was actually undergoing cancer. I never met her. She eventually passed away. And I think it was like another federal judge. I think he had just become a federal judge, so it wasn’t very lucrative at the beginning. Yeah. But, you know, going and meeting with each one of those, there was some kind of impression that they had and then keeping up with them. Right. So I had my little list of five people, and I would take my little list of five people and keep up with that. Email wasn’t really the way that these people kept up.

I mean, I was really into email, but they weren’t. So I would write [00:14:00] them a note, you know, just, I just wanna let you know that I’m now working in a temp agency. You know, and I’m, I’m really looking, I’m really enjoying Portland. I’m meeting all these people and, you know, kind of telling them and not really hearing anything back.

But I think it created some kind of seed in their mind. I will say that for the two that were the federal judges, I had to appear in front of them later. Or when they were talking to other people, they would just say, I, you know, I know that I heard like, oh yeah, they did go with this person. Very, this new attorney just seems really, you know, like a good attorney.

And probably just because I was making those connections, like intentional connections. And so, and then it really helped when I would go, appear in front of them many years later. So, and then that list, I would just ask them for other people. And it just kept growing and growing and just applying, you know, everywhere that I could.

And it felt, I will say that it felt at the very beginning, like I was never gonna make it. I was very impatient. Like, I just wanna, I just wanna get [00:15:00] there. And then I’m looking at my law school classmates, some of them who stayed back and they’re immediately, they’re buying new cars. They’re buying their house, they’ve got like, new opportunities for work.

And I’m like, I cannot believe that I just did this. I just gave up. Like I had this great job and I just left that job, all the connections that I had built, you know. But you know, it was just a matter of time just being patient and working at it. I mean, working on that list until it grew to like two pages and finally I had to get rid of it.

But it, it really did grow. And now I’ve become a very well known attorney here. I can’t remember when that happened. I don’t really count the years, but it’s just all of a sudden where you, you think, oh wow, I guess I am prominent, that means,

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I, well, I’ll tell you that, that approach of attacking the list, I’ll call it attacking the list or just the in person. I did that very early in my career to meet people and to try to just lay the seeds to build business later. [00:16:00] And not many people doing it. Not many people do that. They’re, maybe they’re comfortable, maybe they don’t wanna get out, they’re busy, whatever the excuse is, they’re behind their desk, they’re not really getting out.

And you know, I, I tell people, young, younger lawyers do it, it’s, and I say it’s like dating sort of too. You’re gonna kiss a lot of frogs. I remember some of these lunches and breakfast where the second I sat down, I was thinking, how do I get outta here? But you had to force yourself through it and get to the other side and figure out every little trick in the book to keep the conversation going.

And you just, the reps and again, over, and I was very impatient as well, but I just kept going and going and going. And it’s still. Those reps and those meetings, I still get value out of that today. You know, just friends and, and all the stuff.

Bonnie Richardson: Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, it’s, I think maybe one thing, I remember saying this to myself, and this helps with the people who are nude into the practice and try to break in. it was so defeating, right? It’s like you get a rejection letter [00:17:00] or maybe somebody doesn’t call back or it’s a dud or whatever.

So every day I would just say to myself, okay, it’s a new day, you know, and I’m gonna make one reach out. Right? Just one, like, because there were some days it was just like, oh God, I don’t even want to anymore. But if I just did one thing today, I’m gonna do it because it’s a new day. I, I would just tell myself that over and over.

Yeah. And eventually, you know, it becomes almost too much now. Now I, it’s just, I get too many calls, you know, so

Jonathan Hawkins: Hey. It worked. Okay, so, so when did, so, when, what year did you move to Portland?

Bonnie Richardson: 1998.

Jonathan Hawkins: 1988. So you, you worked your, your list, you, you found a job. What kind of job was it? A big firm, mid-size firm, small firm. What was it?

Bonnie Richardson: Okay. So at, in Oklahoma, I was at a big firm, thought, oh my God, I do not wanna be part of, I, I know it’s sort of like, this must be bad. [00:18:00] So, so I set my sights on trying to stay away from a big firm, going to a mid-size firm. I originally really wanted to work for a plaintiff’s lawyer. That’s what I originally thought I wanted to do right outta law school.

But. I had some pretty bad experiences in meeting some of these people. Probably met the wrong people now that I look back on it. And they just made this impression on me of just like, oh my God, I cannot, I don’t even these, I don’t wanna be this person. So I feel like, God, I, I wish I hadn’t, I wish I had somebody else who was a mentor who was in that space of, you know, doing justice related work so that it wouldn’t be overshadowed by some of the negative experiences.

Right. So, so at the time, I remember reaching out to some of the plaintiff’s firms. It just really hard to break into when you’re brand new. And so I sought out the midsize and you know, and I, I mean I had a lot of student debt too, both undergraduate and law school. So for me, you know, I needed to find a job that [00:19:00] was gonna be able to pay those.

S down and yeah. And kind of get myself going on this career. So mid-size firm. It was, yeah. Not a lot different, I have to say. I feel like, you know what, Jonathan, I don’t know if you’ve heard this, the big firm’s just gonna say it. It’s like, yeah. Everybody’s like, oh, big law. You know? It’s so, you know, I know people think, oh, when I hear, oh, what do you corporate law, I’m like, corporate law, like you represent businesses, corporations, I don’t know, like, you know, sit behind a desk and read contracts.

Okay. There’s nothing sexy about corporate law. I’m sorry. But when I think about the big firms, it’s like a bunch of little firms In the big firm, you have all these little sections and little groups, you know, and, and you know, sometimes they’re defined and you’re trying to navigate and sometimes they’re not defined.

And it’s just like trying to figure out the politics behind all of it. There’s basically just a bunch of small, little firms all put together in. And the mid-size firm is just like a bigger, small firm, right? So, [00:20:00] yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: And so you did the big firm, then you did sort of the middle firm, and then at some point. He said, all right, I’m doing my own firm, or I’m gonna try it on my own. So tell me about what led up to that, and then what pushed you into it?

Bonnie Richardson: Yeah. Well, so I went back to the big firm after the mid-size firm hoping that I would get a lot more experience. That’s really what I was looking for, was I wanna get hands-on experience doing litigation. You don’t get a whole lot of hands-on experience actually in the big firm, but what did I know?

You know, I was just like, oh, you know, I was like, I wanna be around it, you know, maybe I can like prove myself and sort of, you know, get into this. So, you know, actually was lots of experiences there. Way too many stories. So I won’t go into those. I will say that I did develop, which I did not know at the time.

I really had no idea I was doing this at the time at the big firm. There is a group of women who were kind of all around my category of associates, and the [00:21:00] time, I felt like we had nothing in common and very competitive, right? Like ruthlessly competitive. And some of them I liked and some I didn’t but later, Jonathan, maintaining those relationships, despite the difficulties in doing it, repairing bridges, you know, not burning it down.

Those women I have kept up with all these years later, and we are some of them I’m very, very close to and have referred, we’ve referred stuff back and forth to each other. It’s an amazing relationship. Some of them I never thought I would ever be friends with, but it just took me getting away from that competitive environment. Then and yeah, but pretty much all of them I have maintained an amazing relationship with.

So I think you talk about it in your book, you know how important it’s to don’t burn those bridges, right? Like don’t burn those bridges when you leave.

So, so anyway, yeah. But you know, I think [00:22:00] being in the big firm, for me, I think deep down I always knew, ’cause my dad, my dad was a veterinarian. He was like this small town vet solo veterinarian. We helped him start his little clinic and not a very good business person but just him owning his own business and me sort of working there with him, trying to figure out how to, you know, kind of constantly at tension with each other.

And I always think back, gosh, I could have really made that business better, but whatever. I think it always had it in me than I needed to have my own business. And, and I knew that kind of from the beginning, but I wasn’t sure how to do it. When I was in the last big firm. I was trying really hard to make these changes within the firm, and they just weren’t happening quick enough. And it just, there were things that were so frustrating to me, like, I’m like, why would you not give us two monitors to review documents all day long? You know? And so that’s what we do here, right? This is 2000, what was it? 2001. I mean, I’m like, we need these two monitors because we’re looking at [00:23:00] documents.

You have to go through this process. And, and I just thought, okay, time. This is it. I need to do it. So I just started planning. I mean, it wasn’t like it just happened suddenly, you know, I, I was really trying to be intentional about it. I was just trying to figure out like how to do it when I felt like I didn’t have an ability to get cases.

Because when you’re in the big firm, you’re at the whim of these other lawyers. They’re handing you the work. Right. And the secret to that, I mean, to me, the secret to that is are they gonna give you the good work or the bad work? And how do you kind of get in with a client and is that the client that you really want?

Which is gonna be great for the big firm, but doesn’t necessarily translate to maybe a smaller firm. And so, you know, I was trying to figure out how is any client gonna come to me, you know?

Jonathan Hawkins: So true. It is. I mean, it’s a challenge to develop work in the big firm. I mean, because. Especially when you’re a young lawyer. Maybe your uncle is the CEO of Coca-Cola, but other than that, you know, you’re gonna get some small little [00:24:00] case that the whole value of the case is probably lower than the minimum retainer that the firm requires.

There may be a conflict, all the stuff like, Nope, we don’t, you can’t do it. So it’s hard. I mean, it’s hard to develop work. So I assume when you left, you probably didn’t have any clients that came with you or did you?

Bonnie Richardson: No. So I was a little tiny. I mean, most of the clients that I had to work on were really rather difficult type people and so I was pretty good at handling those. So, you know, and I kind of, kind of found my little niche and doing this mortgage stuff and doing these arbitrations and securities, you know, I was just taking whatever I could to, you know, like, be able to bill that, you know, I was the second highest biller when I left, which is kind of astonishing to

Jonathan Hawkins: I can’t, I, I don’t even want to ask how many hours. I don’t even want to know.

Bonnie Richardson: well, there was always somebody a little crazier, right? But it was, it was interesting. I mean, our minimum was 1850, so, but I mean, there was a time when [00:25:00] I billed over 2000. It was easy to do when you just devoted your entire days and nights, you know, on these big like environmental coverage cases. Staring at screens all day. But but no, I, I think that was my, I knew I needed to get clients and I just didn’t know how I was gonna do it. And that’s what held me back. I think just that fear, right? Like how am I gonna get it? and what happened was there was this lawyer in the law firm who was the big rainmaker, and he didn’t, he was very difficult.

But he liked, he picked only like two people that he was nice to, and I was one of them. So, and I loved the work that he did. It was really big, you know, like he was getting stuff outta London. I didn’t get to go with him to those, but I mean, you know, and, and he was just it just felt really good working for him.

He was an excellent lawyer and it felt good that like, oh, he didn’t treat me like shit. [00:26:00] You know, he was actually very. If everybody was very scared of him, it’s terrified. And I, I wasn’t, I don’t know why I wasn’t. I just wasn’t. And he’s one of those people I think, who just, when he smell, he’s like a dog, you know, if he smells fear, he just kind of goes for them.

And so he didn’t smell fear in me. And, and so he just really, you know, he saw me as somebody, and he saw these other associate, also another female associate as like his too, that he would help to get to greatness. So I was just trying to figure out like, how do I hook myself onto him? And I was really afraid to even mention anything to him, you know, but I would sometimes ask him, like, you know, Hey what, what’s, what’s going on behind the scenes?

And he’d kind of share a little bit. But one of the things that I did, which I’ve never told anybody about this, but it’s interesting. There was one of those non-equity lawyers, you know, I don’t have to explain for people on the podcast who they are, but you know, trying to get promoted to equity, but never making it because he didn’t have a million dollar book.

He had like a bunch of little tiny [00:27:00] clients and he was somebody that a lot of people didn’t talk with. So I you know, didn’t do anything in the area that I did, but I’d go down to that floor and I’d just be like, Hey, you know, tell me what you do. And then I’m like, do you, you know, what do you get?

Like, what, what is it that the firm looks at? So he’d share with me all that. He’d show me the spreadsheets, and I, I was like, oh, yes. Yeah. It was interesting how they, they only wanted you to see this one piece, right? So I was trying to understand what that was, and they showed us more than other law firms, but it was really like, how many hours are you doing and what’s your profitability margin?

So when I started seeing like what other people did and how they got the work and how they were splitting it. That really, I was like, oh. And it was with him that I said, you know, you can make a lot more money if you had your own firm. And so I was starting to try to figure out how to do that, thinking that person would be a good person, you know?

Because I didn’t have the clients that were coming to me. I mean, I was, it [00:28:00] was all just whoever would give me the clients that I would go work on. so I was actually trying to figure out how to make that work. But what happened was that one lawyer, his name’s John, same John, he had a big blow up.

He had made plenty of money. He didn’t like certain people that were in the Seattle office or something. And so he’s just like, I’m just gonna leave. I was just like, right now, and he’s like, yeah, yeah, I’m just gonna leave and I don’t need to work anymore. I’m just gonna do whatever I want. George and I are gonna leave.

George was a senior attorney there. He was kind of put out to pastor. He is like, he’s smart. We’ll just, we’ll just do our own thing. and that’s really when I, I was like, well, I wanna go. I wanna go with you. And they’re like, you do. And so that’s really how it evolved. I wish I could say that. Yeah.

I was the one that I just went out, you know, to file this, you know, now I was too, I was too scared to do it on my own. I needed a little more. And remember, well, at that time I had two children. I just [00:29:00] was pregnant when he told me that. With my second child. I’m the breadwinner in my family. At that firm, at the time, there were no female attorneys who had children, and there was nobody that I could look up to, to, yeah.

Pretty much everybody was sort of giving me, I mean, even one person said it, but most of the time it’s like you, you cannot make it. You cannot be successful if you are a mom and have children. As a lawyer, it was just, that was just kind of the atmosphere. So, and I just, I just thought, no, I refuse.

Sometimes I wondered whether or not I would be able to, but I just, I, I refuse to believe that and this particular partner could really not care at all. He just, he did not care whether or not I had children and was awo. I mean, in fact, he saw that women had more power in his mind than men, which was kind of strange for this older white guy, you know?

And I owe a lot to [00:30:00] him because he’s the one that sort of elevated me to be able to take on some of those cases. So, so, yeah. So they started that firm officially on April Fool’s Day, 21 years ago. Not

Jonathan Hawkins: is today as we record.

Bonnie Richardson: oh my God, it is today. Yeah. But I was still like. At home with the baby. I just had a baby.

Right. Like two months old. So, so I was like, oh, okay, I gotta get back. Then I went over when the baby was, I think three and a half months old.

Real quick, if you haven’t gotten a copy yet, please check out my book, the Law Firm Lifecycle. It’s written for law firm owners and those who plan to be owners. In the book, I discuss various issues that come up as a law firm progresses through the stages of its growth from just before starting a firm to when it comes to an end.

The law firm lifecycle is available on Amazon. Now, back to the show.

Jonathan Hawkins: So, so you joined them. It’s around 2005. And then of course the world ended for the first [00:31:00] time wouldn’t be the last time, but it ended for the first time with the great financial crisis 2007 and 8, 9, 10 or whatever. How was that in the aftermath?

Bonnie Richardson: Yeah. So starting that firm, it was like, okay, you know, it was interesting because they were very traditional lawyers. Who didn’t really know how to run a firm. And they said, well, how about you just do it? Like, sure. So when I’m negotiating with them, I was like, okay, well how much am can I get paid? And they’re like, I don’t know.

However much we have come in, I don’t know what kind of cases we’ll get, you know? And I had some clients that were willing to come over with me, but I didn’t really like doing that work, but, you know, it would work out. And they were like, well, you know, you have to start, you gotta have like, three quarters of your pay from before and then maybe, you know, you’ll be able to earn it we’ll see.

I was like, okay, fine. You know, and, but I wanna be able to run everything. I’m like, sure, I better [00:32:00] learn how to read a, you know, financial statement and trust account, so.

Jonathan Hawkins: Didn’t you know what you were asking for, did you?

Bonnie Richardson: Yeah. Well, I mean, a lot of mistakes starting out. But a lot of things that we did right too. Probably one of the best things is just one of my best friends was a managing partner of a mid-size firm. I’m sorry, not a partner. She wasn’t a partner. I always think of her as a lawyer. She was the manager. She was not a lawyer, but she ran the whole firm and did all the books and everything.

So she’s the one that said, let me tell you how it’s done. So I think being able to consult with somebody like that who I trusted and could just gimme the skinny, was really great. Those first couple years were actually better than what we projected. So it felt good and then there were a couple of things that happened not knowing that financial crisis was coming.

My husband was laid off. He’s not a lawyer, he was in a different industry, but we, I could almost, you know, now when I look back, I was telling everybody that this was gonna be [00:33:00] happening because I was doing some of those mortgage fraud cases, and so I could see it all.

But it’s funny how I didn’t really feel like my vision or intuition was valid. I don’t know. And when I look back every time it has been. So I think at that time was yeah, we didn’t really see it coming. And now I have, my husband’s laid off. I had another child in 2007, so third baby. And suddenly no job for my husband who had healthcare, you know?

and I think I always go back and I, I’m like, did I think about that? Right? Yeah. That was the year that I made $12,500. That was my share of the profit. So,

Jonathan Hawkins: How did you survive? I mean, that’s three kids. Husband laid off. I mean, how’d you do it?

Bonnie Richardson: you gotta have really good connections with lenders. You know, you need to be able to borrow money. I also had student loans, right? So, Yeah. So I, you know, it was, it was like, [00:34:00] okay, I think that there’s gotta be a way around this. And, you know, and at the time I’m like, I, you know, the nice thing about being a lawyer is that you can actually get in and do the work, which is what I think we should talk about here in a little bit.

Because it’s actually not doing the work, as you again, say in your, it’s really great. It’s very true. Stop being a lawyer. Start thinking like a founder. Start being a business owner. I wish I had thought of that before. I mean, only in the last. Five, six years now is when I finally am like, yes, that is right. I need to get on with that. And it’s changed everything for me.

But back then it felt like, well, I can just do the work, you know, and try to figure it out. But really I was trying to lead into what the vision was. So my vision of, all right, well where’s, where’s the work that’s gonna come? We could see everything happening, right? Things are falling out, financial crisis.

My friends in the big firm are freaking out, people in-house and, and then I saw this opportunity, [00:35:00] so I was like, okay, well wait a second. Really, that low income year was because we kind of grew a little too fast and we were putting a lot of eggs in the basket on the plaintiff’s side with people that didn’t really know how to do the plaintiff’s work and didn’t have a system in place for predicting.

And so, so I think that’s really what I mean when I say that amounts. It’s true, but I don’t think it was because of the crisis. It was the beginning of the crisis that the real economic crisis happened in 2008, but you could see it coming. Right. And I could already feel it with my husband being one of the first people laid off.

And then the company that laid him off filed bankruptcy. So we see all this coming and then I look over there and I think all those companies and some of the clients I held onto, they’re not gonna wanna pay the big firms. And as the businesses are shrinking, they’re gonna be looking at spending their money on going after money.

Right? And so litigation is gonna start to go [00:36:00] up and commercial litigation. So what better way we we’re right here. We can do that. So that’s really, I actually, because of the economic crisis, the next year I made. A lot more money. So in 2008, two thou, I would say 2008 we were recovery. 2009, everybody else is failing. 2009 was one of the best years at the very beginning.

Jonathan Hawkins: let, let’s, let’s dive, dive into that a little bit more. So you, you, you see an opportunity, you’re like, this is what we need to do. And for people out there, how do you see the opportunity? It’s one thing to say, yeah, I think that’s an opportunity, but it’s another to actually be able to capitalize on it.

So what sorts of, you know. I guess techniques or strategies or whatever to say, okay, yeah, I think this is gonna work. Now we gotta go work to try to get that. What’d you do?

Bonnie Richardson: Okay, so, on that one, so backing up a little bit, I saw an opportunity on another area. It’s kind of a class action [00:37:00] opportunity with some of this mortgage fraud stuff. That I saw from doing work on the brokerage piece and then getting away. Now, I didn’t have the conflicts anymore. And I really saw an opportunity of, I think that the mortgage is gonna be falling out if they keep all these practices up.

This is our time. Let’s get on the class action boat. And I started going through that. There were some, there were two new people who had joined us, and they just put a wet blanket on it. I listened to them. I think that was my biggest mistake. I was sitting there, you know, and they’re like, no, you don’t know what you’re doing.

You know? Oh, that’s like, just naysayers, right. They had no business. They, they were, they were in their fifties at the time. I remember that. And they had no vision, and all they did was not want to see me succeed. Right. But I couldn’t see it at the time. I just wish I had, but I did learn from it, so I just held back.

Then I just saw it all happening. I thought that was a missed [00:38:00] opportunity. I just missed that opportunity. So then when the next one comes in, I had another idea again. You know, same thing. So I got rid of them. See you later. Okay. So,

Jonathan Hawkins: That’s one way to do it. I like it.

Bonnie Richardson: yeah, that was the best thing they can, very good breakup, by the way.

Didn’t burn any bridges. Hello out there. You know, it was all fine, but didn’t need to have that in the way anymore. Got rid of that. Restart the firm. John, my original mentor is still with me. Like, what? Whatever you wanna do, you know, what do I care? So I’m like, okay, I, so now how do I seize on this opportunity? Sure. I don’t mind people telling me like, the, the critical parts, listen to it, right? So we can learn. But if, listen to the reasons why. And are they really visionaries? You know, are they people who are being helpful or are they just, are they providing experiences? Forget about them. Who are the people that are gonna be able to provide you with good critical feedback?

That you can be ready for, not just to put you down. Then look at, okay, [00:39:00] how much am I gonna invest in it? You have to invest in it. It takes money in order to do it right. Is it gonna be my physical labor? Sure. You know, I’m gonna have to put some time into it, but what else can I do for it? So in this one, I recognize we’re gonna be having a lot of people who are not gonna wanna go to the firms.

So I go to all the people that I know and have John go to, you know, we’re gonna go to anybody at these firms and ask them, like, do you have any work? Do you have somebody, maybe one of these smaller cases or businesses happy to do it? Won’t take all the work from it, right? Like, I’m not gonna, we’re we’re only gonna do the litigation piece.

Start to look at doing the plaintiff malpractice. Frankly, I fell into the legal malpractice this way. Saw that as a huge opportunity because I saw where pretty much we could have a monopoly on the plaintiff’s side. In the state of Oregon, the way that it’s set up. So taking that initiative to then spend the money on the website to make it so that you can encapsulate what that vision [00:40:00] is, but then follow up with who are the people that I need to talk with so that I can be the one to accept those cases that maybe they don’t wanna take.

So yeah, so, and that year was like, great, set it up and then all this work started coming in. ’cause they didn’t wanna go to the big firms and litigation was just through the roof. Right.

Jonathan Hawkins: So it worked. It worked. So, so I wanna fast forward a little bit. So the firm that you, that you joined with, those two guys and eventually they sort of, I guess, retired or hung it up and then you kept going, and then I think that is what is your firm now? What became Allegiant? And so I want to, I want to talk a little bit about, you mentioned it a little bit, but the evolution from doing the work to becoming more of the leader and having to run a firm.

Take me through that a little bit. How, how did you learn it? How have you learned it? You know, how did you manage the step away? I think that’s hard for a lot of [00:41:00] folks, myself included. How, how did you manage it or have you managed it, maybe a better word.

Bonnie Richardson: Managing, still managing how to manage it. Yeah, it is it’s a constant struggle. It’s my goal to get there. so I think the realization really came and when. It was, you know, looking outside of law. So if I, I realize I just keep, you know, kind of looking uh, what’s this law firm doing over here?

What’s this over here? I’m trying to set myself apart from them, right? So I’m like, okay, you know, I can kind of set myself apart, but how do I really get inspiration from somebody else? So, looking to other people who are not law firms and who have done very well with this and have succeeded really kind of paying attention because it, what we do as lawyers is really no different than any other service, right?

Like, why are we something so special? We’re not that special. We’re just a service provider. You know? So what can I learn from others? So that is really what my journey started with, right before [00:42:00] COVID started descending down. COVID actually helped because it allowed me to kind of take a step back and think, right, stop the work.

Stopped. Anyway, so, you know, I mean, we were buckling down. But just taking a step back and using that time to think like now I had time to really plan everything out. And really, the, the plan for me was, and, and kind of what helped me was a friend of mine who was in real estate, you know, very, very successful at it.

And she had told me, yeah, I just didn’t go to work for a year. I was like, what do you mean you didn’t go for the, you didn’t go to work at all, you know, going out selling real estate. And no, I just didn’t go. I just had other people handle it. I just put some systems in place and had people handle it.

So, I, I tried to buck again. Oh, I can’t do that. You know, people aren’t, and finally I just came around and that realization really was planted when I could think about it and I could really see, and I think there’s a phrase that people use. It’s I can’t remember what you say in your book, but the one that I always think about [00:43:00] is you gotta work on the business, not in the business.

I’ve gone the business, not in the business. So I started to do that and the first thing was recognizing within myself. I thought I was really good at running meetings and being a leader, right? Yeah, I’m a good leader, but there’s some aspects of the leadership that I’m not good at many actually. And so really taking an internal strong look at that, you know, and there’s lots of different ways that you can do it, but being true to yourself and realizing I am not good at running meetings, I am not good at executing on these big ideas that I have.

I am also really don’t like the internal conflict in dealing with people’s emotions ’cause they soak it all in the negative stuff. So thinking about all of those things and how do I bring in somebody else and make it where it is an amazing thing that they can do that and allowing [00:44:00] them to do it fully. And one of them’s not a lawyer. You know, in fact, being a lawyer is probably your worst asset for running a business.

Jonathan Hawkins: It might be.

Bonnie Richardson: It really is.

Jonathan Hawkins: it might be. Yeah.

Bonnie Richardson: Yeah. So,

Jonathan Hawkins: you know, I am in the middle of dealing with these things too. I think anybody, I’ve, everybody, I don’t think it ever ends. It, it is my conclusion. It just changes. You know, once you hit, you know, you take care of one thing, then it’s gonna be something new.

But it’s always a mindset shift, you know, only I can do this, or the, you know, or I have to be involved in this, or whatever it is. You got, you gotta get past that. And then when you do sort of like your friend who just said, I just left for a year, then you’re like, wow. It actually did work. So, but leaving for a year or even leaving for a month that would be really difficult for me.

Right now,

Bonnie Richardson: Oh yeah. Well, [00:45:00] you’re probably a control person, aren’t you?

Jonathan Hawkins: you know, maybe a little, it

Bonnie Richardson: Little Yeah. We often have the same characteristics, right? The people who are true founders and visionaries. I mean, it’s, that’s, that’s the thing is feeling very alone because, you know, very few people are like this, and usually we’re in these positions.

So being able to talk with other people too, who are visionaries and recognizing it helps. But it is, I mean, when you really, when you really look at the business of law and how to make it done, here’s part of my problem now. Yeah. I’m definitely trying to shove all this off on people, right? Like, we have people who are way better than me, so I surround myself with people who are better than me at things they may not be able to be.

Like, I’m kind of a, a jane of all trades, right? Like, I can do like lots of different things, but there are people who can do things far better than I can and, and are exceeding at it. Maybe they can’t do like every [00:46:00] single thing or certain things, but they’re really good at it. So I surround myself with people who are smarter than me, never somebody who’s not as smart.

I mean, just, you know, they are way better. And then what I do is I tell them I would like for at, you know, my ultimate dream is when the clients come in, you have a very client centered for me. I’m one of the clients taking care of their number one thing, but my dream is that they forget about me.

They don’t even remember that I was there, you know, I mean, maybe I’m sort of in the background, but they just. Recognize, oh wow, this is such an amazing, I’m, I’m being taken care of by this whole team. This is great. That’s what my, my dream and goal is. So how do I get there? The problem is that right now, clients, they very, they tell you, they’re like, well, I want you, you’re gonna to be the one, right.

You’re gonna be the one that’s gonna be at that mediation and do this and that. And, and so, that’s probably one of the hardest

Jonathan Hawkins: let me ask you, let me ask you about that [00:47:00] because in a previous conversation we had, you mentioned that you, you’re in the news a lot out there for a variety of things or a variety of reasons. And so you are, I mean, you’re the founder, you’re the face of the firm. You’re out there on the news, people see you and they’re like, I want you.

How do you balance that? And how would a founder out there, who is the face of the firm, any, any ideas or recommendations on that, on how do you balance that?

Bonnie Richardson: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me it’s all about, you know, I mean, that’s why we changed the name of the firm too, right? I think, again, you talked about this in your book. It’s so validating what you write in your book. It’s like, yeah. I mean, you know, it’s not about the culture of the personality, it’s not the cult of personality, it’s the culture.

It’s the firm, right? Like how do you get away from it being totally reliant on the one person? And that’s where, yeah, that’s really flattering and everything. But no, I mean, I want to make myself, I’m gonna make this even better for me and for everyone else, but I’m going to turn out really [00:48:00] great for this too.

So how do I do that? Yeah, I mean, I actually really enjoy it. Like, I like doing this. I love, you know, talking with like, you know, journalists. I love being on the face of things I love perform, you know, it’s just in my nature. I enjoy that. When the clients come in and they’re just like, yeah, we really want that.

I introduce them to the firm. I always, like, even this last meeting, I had a whole room full of people. I’m like, look, here I am, we’re gonna talk about whatever you wanna, I love strategy, but I work with the team. So I got an associate. I probably have a dollar partner, depending on the case. You have a paralegal, an assistant, I’ll have ai.

You know, that’s really gonna make things inefficient. But you, you know, it’s not, that’s how I work. So, so I, I, I’m just honest about it, you know, it’s not like, oh yeah, I’m gonna be the one they need to know at the beginning. And most of the time they’re like, okay, you know, and maybe some people’s not gonna be a good fit because they, they think, oh yeah, they just need that one person.

Then that’s just not a good fit. You have to say no to that. [00:49:00] But that’s to me how I’m working to change it. Jonathan, I don’t know. You know, let’s see. Let’s just go back to this and see if it works.

Jonathan Hawkins: Okay. So along the lines of going outside the law and maybe learning from outside the law along this, you know, sort of thread we’re talking about let’s talk about EO or Entrepreneurs Organization. I know you’re involved with that. You know, there are lawyers that are involved in it, but it’s a lot of non-lawyers.

So tell me about your experience in that and what sorts of things have you learned from hanging out with non-lawyer business owners?

Bonnie Richardson: Yeah. Yeah. So I was dragged kicking and screaming into that organization ’cause I did not see myself as an entrepreneur. Plus, when I was looking at all ’em, I’m like, God, they’re younger. I don’t know. You know what? This is law, right? Again, I’m thinking I’m different. So it was really because of that friend, the one that took off all that time.

You know, I mean, is because of her that she was a president. So she, she’s like, you gotta check this out. So I kind of went in reluctantly. And now I have made new friends. I’m now [00:50:00] on the board, you know, it’s an entrepreneur organization. It’s to me probably been one of the life-changing things for the firm.

There were systems, for example, I think I had in my mind, I wanna be different than the law firm, big law firm. I’m not gonna have any meetings. I’m not gonna have all these stupid policies and stuff. It’s all just gonna be whatever, you know? And but it’s through them and seeing their experiences and the way they share it.

And none of it, it’s like, it’s not about networking. In order to get business from each other, it’s not that, you know, I mean, sometimes that naturally happens. That’s not the point. The point is that you have people that you can bounce ideas off. You can see their failures. Like everybody has failures. You can also see their successes.

And then you, they also bring in lots of really great learning. So, you know, so we see things that are really business oriented and not just for law. Very few lawyers are actually part of this group in comparison. Lots and lots of it people. And some of my very close friends now are from this group.

So, but I think it’s having, [00:51:00] it’s because it’s so alone sometimes when you’re thinking about all this stuff that you wanna do to be around other people that are similar to you. Not all the time, but like, you know, once a month or, you know, where you’re just like, okay, I’m gonna shut up now. ’cause you can tell here I am.

I’ve been talking this whole time. You know, when I go to one of these, when I go to these meetings with my eo, they’re a very small group of people. We have very strict rules. I can’t say, I can’t say anything. I have to just wait until they do. And I learn so much more that way, you know? So anyway, it’s been really. I would say maybe it hasn’t, you know, changed my life and then it changed the business, which has totally affected my life. I can take vacations, I can feel comfortable, I feel good about the future. We have a system that we put into place. We have policies now. I’m in meetings a lot and I actually enjoy them ’cause I’m not running them.

You know, it’s totally, completely changed starting in 2020 and we’re continuing this trajectory. So we’ll see where it goes.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I think that’s [00:52:00] great and, and I agree with you. I mean, I think it’s good to be in groups with other lawyer leaders to hear what’s going on in your business. But I think getting outside the law huge. I mean, people, I mean, it, there’s so many different ways that are more advanced, way more advanced.

The law is just so slow. I mean, everybody’s talking about law and AI and all, you know, all this stuff now or Yeah, it’s, well, everybody else has been, been in it for a while, right? We are the last ones. And you know, getting out there, huge, huge. So,

Bonnie Richardson: yeah. And getting away from naysayers, right? I mean, because there’s so much part of tradition. Yeah. But also having the connections, like you were just saying, you wanna have your other lawyers. So I have a, I have a group that I formed a long time ago. It’s all female women, business law managers, owners, and they’re very important to me too.

I mean that, I mean, I, I, that was started way long before this. It was you know, it’s a very lonely thing. We didn’t talk about that a lot, but being a woman [00:53:00] and starting a business, especially in law with such traditions, it’s extremely challenging. Jonathan, that’s a whole nother podcast for you that you can talk with them.

It is, like you were saying, going out and having these lunches with people, it’s a different thing when you’re a woman going with a man to a lunch. It just a very different. Dynamic and things that you have to look out for. And a lot of things that hold back a lot of power dynamics. But anyway, so yes, really important also to have that group of lawyer, lawyer friends that I can rely on.

Jonathan Hawkins: so you just gave me a really good idea. I’m gonna pitch it to you and see what you think. I sh we need to do an episode that’s basically a panel. I get to be the interviewer. I’ll be the only guy. ‘Cause I have, I have to be there. But it’ll be a panel of women law firm owners. You’ll be one of them.

And, and, you know, we’ll get three so it’s not too overwhelming. And then we’ll spend an hour and a half talking about all the [00:54:00] challenges and all these things. What do you think?

Bonnie Richardson: I think that’s

Jonathan Hawkins: Would you do it? You in.

Bonnie Richardson: I would totally do it. I mean, the key is to, the key is that if we’re gonna talk about it, let’s be real and raw and at the point in our careers where. We don’t really give a shit anymore. You know? I mean, I think that’s the problem. Like all the things that I couldn’t say before, I can now say and share and show yeah, this is what happened and still is happening.

I think that would be fabulous. Yes,

Jonathan Hawkins: I think it’d be good for a lot. I mean, I think a lot of women would say, yeah, that happened to me. That happened to me. And they would, it’d be good for them to see others that have gone on the path, but it’d probably also be good for a lot of these male lawyers to hear it too. Right.

Bonnie Richardson: it’d be good for men. I mean, one example is my male partner in Seattle, one of my very best friends, I’ve known him since we were teenagers. I mentioned something, you know, like, oh yeah, yeah secretary always was really hard for me. You know, he’s like, [00:55:00] what? He had no idea. And, and it’s something common that has been shared with many women, and I realize.

You know, and he was so grateful to hear about that, and I thought, wow, we just hadn’t really talked about it. He learned so much just from me saying that, so, yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: So a recent guest, I think her episode dropped, I don’t know, two, three weeks ago. As of today Laurie Webb Daniel, she’s a, an appellate lawyer here in Atlanta, and her dad was a prominent trial lawyer, and she tells a story on, on her episode where he, they said, don’t go to law school. You should be a paralegal.

And of course she said, all right, I’m going to law school now and then fast forward, and she got to argue in front of the US Supreme Court, and, and at that, he, he. Carried her briefcase for her. Yeah. He was basically her paralegal for that argument. So came full circle. Yeah. So that was pretty

Bonnie Richardson: yeah. Oh, that’s amazing. Okay. I’ll have to watch that. Yeah. Yeah. I think, and yeah, it’s, [00:56:00] it’s an interesting world for sure.

Jonathan Hawkins: So we’ve been going at it for a while. I wanna be respectful of your time, but I, I want to, I want to wrap up and, you know, ask a question I like to ask all the founders is, you know, what advice would you have for somebody just starting out, maybe thinking about it or a few years in, you know, to, to set their firm up, grow it the right way, do it the way they want to do it, versus what other people, what the naysayers say they can or can’t do.

What, what advice do you have?

Bonnie Richardson: Yeah, I would say if you’re, if you’re thinking about it and you wanna start a firm, you know, just, you know, gather up all the resources that are already available, right? Like there’s, there’s books and whatever, and, you know, the bar will often have forms and things to think about. So you can kind of gather all that so you have it.

And then just, I think one of the most important things is to really do a self-reflection. Whether through some kind of personality or through consultant or something where you can actually [00:57:00] really allow yourself to reflect the kind of person that you are as far as an owner, a manager, a leader and then build around that, right?

Build around it with where are your weakness, strengths, test, here’s your strengths, where are your weaknesses? How do you build around that? So it’s one thing if you’re gonna be solo, if you’re gonna have a firm that’s a very different one. So how do you then build to your strengths and weaknesses early on?

To me, I think that’s the thing that people should focus on first so that they can then build out a plan. But building out the plan is key. I, I, honestly, I didn’t do that. So it’s one of those where I’m like, God dang it. I wish I would’ve done that. You know, and, and, and maybe you hire a consultant to help you do it, that probably would’ve broken through a lot, you know, instead of just trying to do it on your own, it’s worth it.

Remember, it’s an investment. So, to [00:58:00] me, I think some people balk at, oh, you’re gonna spend $5,000 to hire a consultant to start a for, that’s nothing. You know, I mean, spend 20,000, I mean, put an investment in so that it is the right person. If, if that’s what you need to figure out where your strengths and weaknesses are, what your plan is for the next 10 years, and then work backwards from there.

That’s what I would do if I could do it all over again.

Jonathan Hawkins: I agree. A plan, you gotta have a plan. You can always tweak the plan, but you gotta have a plan to start. You gotta, you gotta have a direction you’re going in.

Bonnie Richardson: Ah, yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s a life changer. A game, not a life changer. A game changer, for

Jonathan Hawkins: So, Bonnie, this has been great. Thanks for coming on. We didn’t even get through. We may have gotten through a third of the things I wanted to get through, so, maybe

Bonnie Richardson: that’s ’cause I was talking.

Jonathan Hawkins: well, next time we’ll have to, we’ll go through the rest. You have some good stories that we didn’t get to get to it all. So, for anybody out there that [00:59:00] wants to get in touch with you, maybe they have a case in Oregon.

They need a, they need an attorney. What’s the best way to find you?

Bonnie Richardson: Yeah, well the best way to find me is probably through our website, allegiantlaw.com. And just reach out, email me. I’m more than happy to, you know. Yeah. Or even just, I just wanna talk about the business of law. I love it. But that is the best way to reach me is through email. You can call too. It all goes to the same thing, so, you know.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, some people are brave and give their cell phone number out. I won’t ask you for that, but

Bonnie Richardson: You know, we’re setting up a thing where we have like a special number that goes through the cell phone. We haven’t done that yet, but yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: I don’t, I don’t give my cell phone number out. I just, very, very few people I get enough spam already. I don’t, I don’t need to get more.

Bonnie Richardson: yeah, yeah. No, it’s, it’s very true. Yeah. No, but I mean, you know, we’re recruiting, of course. We’re always looking for people who wanna join a firm that’s kind of unique and different, that wants to be justice oriented on the plaintiff side, always looking, looking for [01:00:00] good fit. Misfits are a good fit often with our firm, so, yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: You heard it here. if you’re in Oregon looking for or looking to move to Oregon, give Bonnie a call. All right. Well, thanks

Bonnie Richardson: Well, Thank you, Jonathan..

Jonathan Hawkins: Thank you.

OutroUpdatedWebsite-1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the founding partner podcast. Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to stay up to date on the latest episodes. You can also connect with Jonathan on LinkedIn and check out the show notes. With links to resources mentioned throughout our discussion by visiting www.lawfirmgc.com. We’ll see you next time for more origin stories and insights from successful law firm founders.