Jonathan Hawkins: [00:00:00] And for people that are out there that, again, thinking about niche practice, industry areas or whatever. These other opportunities arise and I imagine you didn’t just say, Hey, I’m gonna go do this one day. It was probably each one of these things was created in response to issues or problems being raised by your clients and others in the industry. Hey, that’s a problem. We can go solve that.

Scott Zucker: Right. And being entrepreneurial in a firm setting of, you know, your own founding partner sort of world gives you the flexibility. And I have to sort of go back as, the big step into the void when David and I started Weissman and Zucker in 99, after, you know, being at my firm for 12 years as just an, you know, employee partner of my firm.

You make this entrepreneurial step and you realize that. it’s a big jump to get there, but I want to motivate people that, the opportunity of taking those steps of starting [00:01:00] your own practice, partnering with others to start a, small firm and and being, independent and entrepreneurial has these advantages where you can be more flexible. where, you know, you have the opportunity to create other, businesses. Oh, look, there’s plenty of lawyers that are in the real estate business that do side investments with their clients for real estate development. It’s the same sort of thing I’ve just picked to do, cooperation with my clients in a niche area of self storage, because I see the needs, just like you’re saying, that have come up over the years, as you know, as compared to a real estate deal here or real estate deal there.

Welcome to the Founding Partner Podcast. Join your host, Jonathan Hawkins, as we explore the fascinating stories of successful law firm founders. We’ll uncover their beginnings, triumph over challenges, and practice growth. Whether you aspire to launch your own firm, have an entrepreneurial spirit, [00:02:00] or are just curious about the legal business, you’re in the right place.

Let’s dive in.

Jonathan Hawkins: Welcome to Founding Partner podcast. I’m your host, Jonathan Hawkins. This is a podcast where I get to interview law firm founders and hear about their journeys and some of the cool things they’re up to. And today’s guest I met fairly recently and he has done and is doing some really cool stuff. So I’m excited to have Scott Zucker on the podcast today.

Scott is an attorney here in Atlanta. He’s got his own firm he’s got, he has developed an interesting niche practice I’ll just call it self storage law. I’ll let him really flesh that out a little bit. But Scott, welcome to the show. Why don’t you give a quick sort of overview of your firm and what kind of work you, what you do nowadays.

Scott Zucker: Well, Hey Jonathan, thank you so much for having me on the program. I’m excited to do this with you today. I I guess I fall into your founding partner [00:03:00] definition because in 1999 a buddy of mine, David Weissman and I started Weissman and Zucker here in Buckhead, and here we are our 26th or 27th year later. and yeah, it’s been quite a ride. So I always love talking about the adventures we’ve gone on to have our firm and have it still be here all these years later. So I, I started my practice in, in 1987. I, I know I only looked, you know, 30, but, been, you know, been at this a while. And, and after 12 years at my initial firm, I started as an associate and, became a partner there.

You know, this opportunity of running off and being entrepreneurial with David came up. And so after 12 years of my earlier firm, we started this firm. and I, you know, getting to the question of the, of the self storage practice, I always remember one of my, earliest partners at my old firm would say, you know, Scott, there’s a big difference between having cases and clients, [00:04:00] right?

You can have cases, but that’s not how you build a business. You have to build clients. So I went out to, you know, to build a client base because that’s what I had understood was my job as a young associate at this firm, and one of my first cases that became a client was a developer building a self storage facility.

I think this goes back to like, you know, 1990, almost. And I worked with him on the development and construction matters relating to that practice. That was the area that I was primarily working in back then, and it was self storage. So he built it and then he came back later and said, Scott, how do I operate it?

Are there any rules relating to operating self storage? And I, I was like, I have no idea, but I’ll, I’ll look it up for you. And I looked it up and realized there was laws that related to the regulatory operation of a self storage facility, which always sort of amazes people that our [00:05:00] legislature bothered to look up and create laws for self storage.

But there were laws. So I guided him through his property. I love to write, and we’ll talk about that later. So I wrote an article, it got published in the National Trade Magazine for self storage. And then there was, somebody read the article and had a conference on self storage, invited me to speak on it.

And lo and behold, now, you know, 35 years later or more, you know, I’ve been doing quote, self storage law since then. I, I have to caveat my, my wife always jokes, you know, in sort of a funny enough, funny, but you know, what are we gonna put on my tombstone? And it’s gonna say, here lies a self storage lawyer.

But anyway

Jonathan Hawkins: so, well, we can put your ashes. We, we know where to store your ashes. We could put it

1. Uh,

Scott Zucker: don’t laugh. That’s happened many, many a times. We’ve found ashes in self storage facilities. I always wonder about families that care so much about their loved ones that they store their ashes at a self storage facility. [00:06:00]

Jonathan Hawkins: So, so I love that story. I love, I love lawyers that, that sort of make their way into an niche practice, and I love hearing how they did it. So I’m curious though, so I that’s a great story. You had the one client wrote in an article that led all these things. I, I imagine, and maybe this is not the case, but did you have some other types of clients and other types of matters that you sort of did the same thing and then it just sort of gravitated towards the self storage? Or, or did, was that the only thing that really happened?

Scott Zucker: Well, you know, I did, the first firm I was at again, I was there for 12 years and I, and I did the work that I was supposed to do with the partners that I that I learned from all that were great mentors for me. and I did, you know, I was a construction development type lawyer, in the early days and, and I was doing that work, but that was, you know, doing, chemical plants or, manufacturing centers, you know, so there wasn’t anything nichey about it.

And they already had their lawyers and everything, but when it came to the world of self [00:07:00] storage, people were, that was a, it was a new industry back in, in 1990. I mean, the first self storage facilities were only built, I mean, arguably the, the first generation were built in the late seventies and eighties.

So it was a new, industry and the fact that I was sort of a young lawyer with young clients and I seemed to be paying attention to them, made a natural fit. So yeah, there were other areas of construction development that I were doing, other industry verticals that I could have gotten involved in. And, and I certainly made an effort to write about some of those things.

But my quote, success came from the fact that I was the only guy and very much still in this industry. So for only a handful of lawyers that do what I do, cared enough about the self-storage industry to really focus on it And I took a shot and, and I, you know, I, I’m very lucky because the self storage industry grew from a relatively fledgling real estate sector to one of the most [00:08:00] successful real estate sectors right now. I joke, and I’ve said this to a lot of people, and I think they realize that after, maybe, and after they hear this podcast, if you drive home tonight and you’re looking on each side of the street, wherever you’re driving, you’re gonna see a self-storage facility. And there are more self-storage facilities than there are fast food restaurants combined.

Like all the McDonald’s, all the Wendy’s, all the taco bells put ’em all together and there’s still less than the number of self storage facilities there are in this country. it’s that sort of unique industry.

Jonathan Hawkins: That is amazing. That that is an amazing statistic. Wow. You know, it’s interesting, so during COVID and sort of the, maybe the year or two after COVID, I may have mentioned you this before, but I was on Twitter ’cause we had nothing else to do and there was a whole sort of sub Twitter community about self storage.

It just exploded and everybody’s like, I’m buying it, this, that, and the other sort of from, I guess 2020 to 2023, I don’t know if you. [00:09:00] We’re on Twitter, or if you sort of noticed an explosion in your business.

Scott Zucker: Yeah, well, it, it, it was a phenomenon because of COVID. There, there was an uptick in the industry, and I think essentially people realized that they were gonna stay at home, had to get all the junk out of their home to make room for their offices and their families and everything, and use self storage. The occupancy levels for self storage during those periods skyrocketed. There were, there was a concern about oversupply. I can, I could even guarantee you, in, in 2019, early 2020, there were discussions about overbuilding in this industry. And that all changed in, you know, two months. with COVID, I, I can’t, you know, I don’t wanna say it was the best thing that ever happened to self storage, but in a way it, it certainly opened the market to having people realize that they can put their stuff somewhere else that doesn’t have to be their home or garage or basements.

Jonathan Hawkins: So you, so you write this article, you get invited to speak at this [00:10:00] conference. How big was the conference? Was this brand, I mean, it is sort of a young industry, was it pretty

big? I mean.

Scott Zucker: the first one I went to was, was in Chicago, Illinois. I felt like such a big shot. I, I can’t tell you that I went, you know, went into my partners. I’ve been asked to speak at this conference in Chicago, you know, there were probably four to 500 attendees at that conference. If you look at those conferences now in our industry, there’s upwards of 4,000 people at these conferences with vendors and operators. So it was a relatively small conference and again, there weren’t lawyers that were really talking about the laws. Now in realizing that every state has their own independent self storage law, there is no model law, there’s an attempt at a model law, but each state’s law is different. So the confusion, especially with multi-state operators, is how am I operating in different states?

So they really needed counseling as to following the laws. Then it sort of blossomed into not just regulatory [00:11:00] compliance, but everybody has an employee, so how to manage their employees and everybody needs to understand their marketing rules about proper marketing of their properties. So it became a, a bit with understanding those issues.

Now we deal with data breach issues and cyber liability. I mean, there’s, it’s just an interesting breadth of legal issues that come up within the operation of this industry vertical.

Jonathan Hawkins: That’s a great point. You know, there are lots of different, I’ll call niche practice areas. I mean, you could, you can go to family law, you can go personal injury. You create, you, your niche is sort of an industry niche. And then when you get into that, there’s so many verticals or whatever underneath it or underneath the umbrella that you can really grow the practice in lots of interesting and different ways.

And then the other point, which I wanted to follow up on too, is the, the national level of it. Each state is sort of its own animal. And then, you know, sort of [00:12:00] how have you developed, I guess you have a national sort of practice as well? Or, Or, tell me about that.

Scott Zucker: Well, I, I do, I mean, I speak on, you know, globally, on the, the issues that impact the industry from a legal perspective. We’re dealing with both with state legislative issues as well as federal legislative issues that affect the industry. And, and one thing I would tell you as a lesson learned from all this, and, and certainly for your listeners, sort of the, advice is build out your network of trusted lawyers in other states.

Because if you, if you find a client that is a strong growing client, it’s likely they’re gonna cross over into other states, and you need the resources of those state of, of lawyers in those states. So I’ve built up a network over the last, you know, 35 years of great lawyers throughout the country. That I can turn to and re and refer matters and work with, with them on, on matters that have happened around the country. you know, so that, that’s an important thing. You have to be able to trust, you have to be willing to, to work with them, for the same client, not be worried [00:13:00] they’re gonna steal clients, things like that. It’s a real team effort to build an industry, national industry practice,

Jonathan Hawkins: You

know, it’s, that’s the other thing. So I had I don’t know if you know Joe Freed another lawyer here in Atlanta. He’s, he’s the trucking lawyer.

Scott Zucker: trucking lawyer. Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, he said when he, years ago when he started that people told him he was crazy. They’re like, there’s not, there aren’t enough cases, blah, blah, blah.

And his point was, well, when you niche down, then you can grow geographically. And it sounds like that’s pretty much what you’ve done. ’cause again, probably back then, you’re like the fledgling industry. There aren’t that many in Atlanta. I mean, probably like, am I crazy to even

try.

Scott Zucker: I, you know, there’re certainly the crazy if I even try comments that, that have come along the years. But, but I do believe, and again, this is why I like to talk about this for, for young lawyers especially, I think a niche practice is really important because there’s so many lawyers out there and they’re all great lawyers and they all do a lot of the same things in terms of a general [00:14:00] litigation real estate practice.

But when you dig into an area and really know what you’re talking about with regard to the laws, the history of precedents, the best practices of an industry, and really know it and really can counsel your clients in that niche, people will seek you out and you’ll get work because you’re knowledgeable in an area I don’t pretend to be.

The most knowledgeable lawyer about everything. This is why I have the network of lawyers that I work with in these specific areas, but I know this industry, so if an issue comes up, I know who to call. I know where to get the information and the answer that people need. And that’s been a resource for my clients as well.

So I, I think a niche practice, whether you’re in a small firm or a big firm, can be really valuable.

Jonathan Hawkins: And so for maybe a younger lawyer out there that may be thinking about how do I develop a practice? Do you have any advice on, you know, looking back the things that worked, didn’t work on how you grew this thing. Maybe some things they should think about as [00:15:00] they start to explore developing a niche practice.

practice

Scott Zucker: Well, I, I’ve read some of your articles on this, on this question of do you say yes or do you say no? And I’ve always said yes. Maybe too much. I speak at every conference that I get invited to. I write every article that I’m asked to write. I believe in the concept of communication to develop a practice. So I’m I’m very much for a young lawyer I believe in in saying, yes, I, I have this expression that I warned you about it. It goes with a great story, but it’s the go out, get seen out, get asked out philosophy.

And it came from my wife’s best friend when they were in college. Her mother would say to her daughter, go out, get seen out, and you’ll get asked out. And I thought that was the most hysterical advice for, you know, for the dating scene. But it’s true for lawyers that are marketing too, is you can’t [00:16:00] sit in your office and build a practice. You have to go out, you know, people do lunches and things like that. I believe in, the concept of education. I believe if I go out, write articles, speak at conferences, that people will. better themselves by learning, and then if they need me, they know where to go. And that’s been my philosophy.

So I say yes, and I’m speaking at conferences and writing articles. I, I’ve written so many articles that as you know, I mean, they, they’ve become books of compilations of articles to the fact that there’s a book coming out this spring of my articles that’s, you know, over 200 pages long of, because it’s just, maybe I should stop, but I’m still writing articles.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, that was gonna be my next question. Or point is obviously write articles and you speak, you go everywhere. But you have written a lot of books. Now. You’ve written some fiction too. We’ll talk about that as well. But you are a writer. I can, I mean, [00:17:00] you’re just a writer and you’re, and you, you are a really good marketer and that’s what really hit me immediately. So tell me about, you know, how many books have you written at this point?

Scott Zucker: Well in in the industry, legal education side, these compilations of articles and that, and actually that’s a good point because don’t ever sit down and go, I gotta write a book. Because it’s mind blowing. You’re, it’s too hard. The white page that you’d have to start typing on is insurmountable sometimes. I’ve thought of it in little pieces. So I’ve written articles and then these articles have become compilation of, of industry education books. So I’ve written two books that are called Legal Topics and Self Storage that are published by the National Association and, and sold to members and operators that are out there.

I’ve written, rental agreement handbooks. I’ve worked with another lawyer and we’ve done state lien manuals, 50 state lien manuals. We’ve written books on, lean sales and collection practices. A [00:18:00] lot of industry writing. I mean, ’cause when you’re at this, as long as I have, you know, there’s, there’s a lot that we’ve written out there and, and form books and all that sort of stuff.

So that’s all the, the legal stuff. When I wasn’t doing all the legal writing. I, again, love to write and you know, I mean, I know there’s folks out there that feel the same way. They want to express themselves. I always thought I was gonna write the Great American You know, that, that’s a lot of us lawyers.

You know, we go to law school and we’re thinking this is a part-time gig until I’m, you know, a well established novelist. But, you know, inspired by the John Grisham’s and the Scott Toro out there, I started and wrote my first legal thriller, and then I wrote a family, redemption novel, all fiction.

And then lastly, I just wrote a historical, fiction novel about World War ii. So I, I just wanted to write, I wanted to come to the office. Sometimes I’d come early in the morning and I’d, you know, instead of writing a self storage article, I’d wanna write a chapter in a book. And those [00:19:00] chapters became books and each book, last thing I’ll say, each book took about five or six years to write.

So it takes time, but. You know, don’t, I don’t want people to think you gotta sit down and write a book. You just sit down and write a chapter and eventually those chapters become a book.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, I was gonna ask what your process was, but it’s was just a little bit consistently just working on a little. At a time, and then all of a sudden you’ve got, you’ve got a book.

Scott Zucker: You got a book. I mean, you did it yourself. I mean, it’s the same thing. I mean, I, I’m looking at your law firm book behind you. I think that the creation of something tangible of, of your writings is you wanna help people and you want to share that information. I did that with a mediation book that I’ve also written, with my mediation articles. I think it’s something to create something concrete and tangible is a very meaningful act of humanity in a way. So I, I’m very proud that I’ve been able to do this.

Jonathan Hawkins: so let’s talk about your mediation practice for a moment. Again you know, when I [00:20:00] got to know you and saw all the things you did to build your. Self-storage, legal practice. You’d mentioned that you were starting or, or had been starting to develop your mediation practice and I had seen some of your articles before we met.

I was like, okay. Yeah. And so you’re, you’re sort of using a similar playbook to do that, and you had a book there. So clearly it’s worked for you. And, and so you’re, you’re sort of using the same playbook for the mediation practice, so how is that going and, and, has it been working?

Scott Zucker: It, it actually is the same playbook that actually you’re probably the first person to recognize that it’s the same thing of go out, get seen out, get asked out. For my mediation practice, same way I was doing for myself, storage practice, the mediation practice grew from the fact that, eventually I focused on the litigation side of self storage became very much a, dispute oriented business with landlords and tenants and vendors and contractors. So it was [00:21:00] constantly litigation focused. So I’ve spent a lot of my years as a litigator, both on the plaintiffs and defendants side. And, and I really struggled with the fact that, litigation is an expensive, time consuming, inefficient process in the real sense of things.

But that’s what we had. But in the, you know, in the late eighties, early nineties, you started seeing a DR and I was exposed to participating in arbitrations, in mediations in my practice. And it really, it really worked and I really thought it was successful. So in 2015, about 10 or 11 years ago, I started my mediation service as a service of my law firm. You know, obviously not my clients, but wanted to market it. As a, as an alternative to people that were coming to oral law firm. Not to hire me as a litigator, but hire me for the purpose of being an arbitrator or a mediator. I had a fun, creative, you know, epic Resolution services. I created this company and we were rocking along pretty much [00:22:00] doing mediations and arbitrations as an independent neutral for, for 10 years. Same sort of thing, like you said, the same playbook I I wrote about mediation. I spoke about mediations. I’ve I’ve done a lot with the state bar and the Atlanta bar. Very, very proud to be, have, have been the chair of both the Atlanta Bar, ADR section of the chair of the state bar, ADR section. And, and built up a reputation in that niche, moving away from litigation to do more mediation. So it is the same playbook and it, and recently I joined Miles Mediation and moved the Epic platform into, into the Miles platform. And it’s been a lot of fun and I, and I think ultimately I believe in the concept of dispute resolution through mediation and arbitration because of its success and the benefit to, the participants, the, I guess, cost effectiveness, efficiency, and, participation and resolution.

Jonathan Hawkins: So, so let me give you my observations [00:23:00] about, mediators. And then I want to hear, I want to hear your thoughts. I, you know, just from, from practicing law, you know, 20 plus years at this point, you see a, a litigation lawyer. A trial lawyer, they, they work their entire life, their whole entire career.

And then they turn 65 or 68, and then they retire from the practice, and then they become a mediator. And then they just, or they’re a judge and they retire and they become a mediator and they just sit there and feel like, oh, the cases will just come. And I, and I’ve seen, you’ve probably seen it too, lots of these attorneys that sort of pop out for a year and then they disappear, pop out for a year and disappear. Because they don’t do the things you’re doing. They don’t go market the practice. And then the. if they don’t do that, then they’re not gonna develop the mediation practice. I see that over and over again. I’m sure you have too. And then the other piece is the ones that maybe do market a little they wait till the very end where really, maybe you should start a little bit earlier ’cause it takes a while to [00:24:00] develop any kind of practice area including mediation. So, are my observations semi correct there? What do you think?

Scott Zucker: I think so. I mean, that’s why I started 10 years ago. I, knew this would take, a lot of lead time. I’m not there yet. I mean, I’m still growing the practice and, I’m still, you know, practicing through my firm, as well because I think it’s very difficult for someone to retire one day.

As a practicing lawyer and then start the next day as a mediator and think you’re gonna get the work. I, and I agree with you, it takes time. You, you are developing a practice. So for the folks out there that are interested in it, you gotta, you gotta start now. You gotta get the proper training, get the proper observation of mediations, try to participate both as an advocate and as an observer as much as possible.

Going back to the, basically say yes every chance you get, and then you can build a practice. I haven’t, you know, it’s interesting. I, when it comes to the concept of niche mediation practices, I’ve been close to that in the area of [00:25:00] construction because that’s, I spent a lot of my years as a construction lawyer in that world of self storage. But I’ve been hesitant to just be a construction mediator. I’ve, I’ve, at this point, still a general legal practice mediator. But with time may tell. I mean, it may, I may end up needing my own advice and focusing only on one area of law to perfect my strength as a mediator or an arbitrator. So it’s kind of interesting and evolving pro process for me. We’ll check back in 10 years and see how it’s going with, with regard to my mediation practice.

Jonathan Hawkins: What about, geographic reach of your mediation practice? Are you you, you know, you’ll go anywhere or are you staying in the Georgia, Atlanta area? What, what’s.

Scott Zucker: You know, it’s interesting, since, since you don’t need a, a license, a bar license to be a mediator, I mean, effectively I could mediate around the country and I know there are mediators and arbitrators that do that. My focus is probably close to home. I have, and still do travel a lot [00:26:00] for meetings and matters around the country.

So. You know, if I could stay closer to home, I’m fine with that as the years go on. I’ve got a grandchild now, so I, you know, closer I can be a, the better.

Jonathan Hawkins: There you go. Yeah, I get it. So I wanna shift. So another thing that is really intriguing, interesting about you is this concept of an ethical will. And I, I saw a TED talk that you gave. So maybe why don’t you explain what you mean by an ethical will, and then we’ll dive into that.

Scott Zucker: So here it goes back to my writing. And, and not everybody’s like this. And I, you know, I, I want to take people on this sort of journey and you don’t have to do it the same way that, that I did it. But I, I do like to write, so it, with that in the backdrop, I lost my parents when I was in my, mid to late twenties.

And I, as I. married and started having children. There was a, there was a void in me. Not having all of the [00:27:00] stories, lessons learned advice sort of thing that many of us get from our parents, you know, into their forties, fifties and sixties, some of us, about life, raising children, managing illness, managing stress, all the things that are out there.

So when I had a young family, I really thought it was my duty in case something ever happened to me and they didn’t have their, their dad around to make sure that I shared with them my philosophy, my feelings, my stories, my lessons, my advice on topics. So I just, the same way I talked about writing chapters of the book.

I picked topics and I wrote about them, and I gathered ’em together and I created this book of. At that point it was 40 things about turning 40. And when I turned 50, it was 50 things about turning 50 and 60 things about turning 60. And I had created this book of writings about my family and my [00:28:00] feelings about particular areas, you know, as, as important as the areas of, how I feel about marriage, how I feel about, religion, how I, and as silly as how I feel about dogs and how I feel about baseball and how I feel about golf.

I mean, it’s just, you know, I wanted them to make sure that anything ever happened to me. They, they maybe could know me through my writing. Okay. So I wrote this thing and then I shared it with, my rabbi and I said, you know, I wrote all this because I wanted to make sure that it was there in case anything happened to me.

And he said to me, you’ve written an ethical will. I said, what’s an ethical will? And I, so then I went out and learned that the creation of something, people do it by legacy letters. Some people do it creatively through art, some people do it creatively, poetry writing, but they create something that shares their lessons, their advice, their experiences in a tangible fashion that can be shared with their [00:29:00] loved ones, either during their life or after they’re gone.

And the creation of that legacy document it to me, and I’m absent that from my parents, but, but to me, is, I’ve understood now after I talk about this with people, one of the most valuable items, tangible items they’ll ever have in their lives. People that get letters from their parents on their wedding dates or letters, you know, about their experiences.

All that being said, so I learned about the topic of ethical wills and really started digging into. Understanding how important it was for people to, to do these, this type of legacy writing. I started speaking at it at synagogues and churches and hospitals and hospices and people really reacted to it.

They, they love the sharing and the reminder that we’re not gonna be here forever, that we need to create something for our families and our loved ones, as a reminder of who we were and what we believed in and what we loved and what we fought [00:30:00] for, and what we tried to accomplish in our lives. And it led me ultimately to a recommendation to speak about it via a TEDx talk here in Atlanta.

So I did that. It, it’s just a passion project. I am not a trust and estates lawyer, as we’ve discussed. I’m just, I’m just a commercial litigator. But it’s a topic that I think everyone needs to talk about and think about, and anybody with a family should be responsible for creating.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I, I think it’s an incredible concept and it’s now on my high, very high up on my, my list of things I need to start doing. I think it’s great. And, and that Ted Talk was incredible. And, and I, there were times you give some examples from people and, you know, I was tearing up. It’s, it’s pretty powerful stuff.

And anybody out there I would recommend go find the Ted Talk, watch that, and think about the concepts that you’re talking about and putting these things together.

Real quick, if you haven’t gotten a copy yet, please check [00:31:00] out my book, the Law Firm Lifecycle. It’s written for law firm owners and those who plan to be owners. In the book, I discuss various issues that come up as a law firm progresses through the stages of its growth from just before starting a firm to when it comes to an end.

The law firm lifecycle is available on Amazon. Now, back to the show.

Jonathan Hawkins: So let me ask about yours specifically. You said it’s a, it’s a book. Did you, did you bind it? Is it just printed out? How, how did you, what did you do for the, the actual product?

Scott Zucker: I wrote it originally as these separate topics. Again, issues from integrity and honesty to family to having children, to raising teenagers. You know, I wrote a chapter about my, older son getting married. I mean, just, just how I feel about all these things. Not that anybody really cares, but I thought it was important for me to, to share it. And, and I did originally just keep it as a, printed out log of, of topics, but as I got more [00:32:00] into it, I, I did start crafting it as a potential book that others would read. Not as much about, it’s hard to describe the, like as an example, a guidebook of how to do it. And it’s yet to be published, but it would be in the sense of an example of a way to write an ethical will.

So it, it provides instructions. And my book ends up being an example, but then it would be a, you know, something that somebody could read. Hasn’t, hasn’t been finished yet, but it is something I’ve thought about. In fact, one of the, most fun things that I did with the book when I was working on trying to think about publishing it, is at the beginning of each chapter, I found a quote that discussed the topic.

And, you know, whether it be something from Abraham Lincoln or George Carlin, it would be a quote about the topic. So it went from, you know, either serious, just sort of [00:33:00] fun, any, anyway, so I, I, that is a project that I’ve worked on. We’ll see what happens.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I could see as, as I’m thinking about it, is. You could create a hard hardcover book. You could put, I’m talking about me, put in photos, family photos that sort of sort of reflect what you’re talking

about or about the time that you write it. And even if you never put it out into the world, it’s just something that’s sort of like a family heirloom.

All, all the kids get it and then you could get, the grandkids could get it. You know, it’s just sort of this thing that in the family, somebody has it and maybe even have, I guess it’s a thumb drive nowadays, or DVD or whatever with actual video or audio recording so you can hear what you sound like. I mean, it is, you could really do really cool things with this.

Scott Zucker: I love it. In fact, you’ll see that there are commercial products out there that, that offer, that it’s very, it’s simplified now to, to create these memory books. I wish I had come up with the creative commercial side for doing it, but, but [00:34:00] you’re right. I mean, everything you’re talking about that has a tangible sense of a family heirloom is, is extremely relevant to this topic.

I, I’ll tell you a story, and it was in the, it was in the living section of the, of the old Atlanta Journal constitution. I’ll never forget reading this story about a house fire. And the only thing this, you know, he got his kids out and his family and all that, but the only thing he wanted tangibly out of his house was a letter that his father had written to him that was in a keepsake box in his closet.

And I mean, he fought through a fire to get that box that had this letter in it because it was that important as a family heirloom. And he talks about that legacy letter being the key to, you know, what he wanted. He didn’t care about the rest of the house. He got his family out. He just wanted that, that letter because he couldn’t imagine losing that letter in the fire.

Jonathan Hawkins: Wow. Well, again, listeners, I encourage you to, to find the Ted Talk. it’s really, really powerful stuff. Alright, so I wanna shift back a, a little bit back to [00:35:00] the law firm. And so another thing that, that we hadn’t talked about yet that I, I think’s cool about some of the things you did. So you, you, you found this niche practice, this niche, industry practice, and you crafted or created your law practice around it.

But that’s not all you did. You, you, you have created some, I’ll call ’em, ancillary businesses, these other I guess. S educational, non-legal, whatever you wanna call them, ancillary businesses that, that are also around the niche industry. So tell me about that and how, how those came about and, and, you know.

Scott Zucker: Yeah, so, so the, you know, you, you recognize when you’re in an industry as, as deep as I’ve gotten into the self storage industry, that there’s, there’s elements that are not addressed for the benefit of the business owner. Whether it be a, a hotline for quick information about the, the infor, the statutes that are out there, or quick information [00:36:00] about best practices in a particular area.

There needs to be a resource for people in a particular industry. So a lot of these national associations create these hotline systems for their members to have a resource to get information. So we’ve been lucky enough to work with the National Self Storage Association to create a, a hotline service for its members.

And one of the services within that is the legal information piece of it. Because it, ’cause it is an industry that is highly regulated and has these state and federal laws that apply to operation. So a, a regular layman operator that’s working in its business that’s not familiar with, you know, wage and hour laws that might affect their employees or, you know, lunch hour rules that affect, or PTO rules.

I mean, it could be something like that, that they’re looking for information rather than go to Google for it. They go through their national association membership hotline for information. So we’ve been able to staff that [00:37:00] as a resource for the National Association, same way that we’ve supported building out a form book for operators.

In the industry, whereas otherwise, there weren’t these documents that they need for notice to tenants to comply with the notice requirements under the law, the leases, the advertisements that they use as part of a lean foreclosure process. This sort of form book guidance has been an ancillary business as well that we’ve cooperated, especially with the National Association to provide, one of the most unique businesses that have grown out of here is the, a DA laws that apply to self storage and the retrofit kits that are needed for self storage operators to make their units accessible to the disabled.

Under the applicable a DA laws, we assisted in creating the compliant, retrofit kits that fall within the law. [00:38:00] It law sort of. It takes over everything. I mean, we, we we’re in it as lawyers, but sometimes we don’t realize how hard it is for business operators to understand and to address all these things.

So, you know, once you’re in an industry, you end up being a resource for all these little segments. And they’ve all become little ancillary services, sometimes investments for us, sometimes business units. And being an entrepreneurial practice founding partner of our firm, we have the ability and the flexibility to do these other ancillary businesses different than you would if you were in a big firm where there’d be no room for you to be doing.

I, I don’t wanna call it side hustles because they’re all part of the same package of, of services, but, essentially it’s doing more than just billing by the hour for the legal services you provide.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, I think that’s, that’s really, really cool stuff. And And for [00:39:00] people that are out there that, again, thinking about niche practice, industry areas or whatever. These other opportunities arise and I imagine you didn’t just say, Hey, I’m gonna go do this one day. It was probably each one of these things was created in response to issues or problems being raised by your clients and others in the industry.

Hey, that’s a problem. We can go solve that.

Scott Zucker: Right. And and being entrepreneurial in a firm setting of, you know, your own founding partner sort of world gives you the flexibility. And I have to sort of go back as, the big step into the void. When David and I started Weissman and Zucker in 99, after, you know, being at my firm for 12 years as just an, you know, employee partner of my firm.

You make this entrepreneurial step and you realize that. it’s a big jump to get there, but I want to motivate people that, the opportunity of taking those steps of starting your [00:40:00] own practice, partnering with others to start a small firm and being, independent and entrepreneurial has these advantages where you can be more flexible. where, you know, you have the opportunity to create other, businesses. Oh, look, there’s plenty of lawyers that are in the real estate business that do side investments with their clients for real estate development. It’s the same sort of thing I’ve just picked to do, cooperation with my clients in a niche area of self storage, because I see the needs, just like you’re saying, that have come up over the years, as you know, as compared to a real estate deal here or real estate deal there.

Jonathan Hawkins: It’s, it’s interesting you said that when I started my firm, it’s been about almost eight years to the day now. We’re almost there. I remember in the, in the first six to eight months. All these opportunities that before I would not have been able to pursue. They just started coming, Hey, I’ll try that, I’ll try this, I’ll try that.

It was just, the world had opened [00:41:00] up. And we had talked about this I think before we went, maybe earlier on, on this call, but it’s, you know, I was saying yes to everything and then I finally had to say no. I was like, I, I don’t have time for all of these things. But it was, it was really exciting and cool to be able to, like you said, have the opportunity to, to sort of pursue some of these side hustles, I’ll call ’em, but, but other opportunities that when I was at my firm, I, I could not have done that.

Scott Zucker: Yeah. It’s funny that you’re talking about the no factor because you know, you say it glibly that you started saying no, but it’s hard to say no. Because this, this also goes with the type of personality that I’m sure you and I are and some of your listeners who, who think about this as being, going out there and, and starting their practices is, it feels like a challenge.

And you, in order to succeed, sometimes you have to do things that are uncomfortable. So it is a yes, you know, maybe you’re out there early on, signing up to do, [00:42:00] you know, defense work for local courts. I mean, to get the business, you know, sometimes you just have to work to get where you wanna get. It’s not always easy.

I, I, believe that there’s lots of really strong success stories out there of people that took that chance and it took a little while, you know, and a lot of yeses and maybe some nos, but, you know, and, and, and taking on clients that maybe they didn’t want but needed to. And eventually you build up that practice that is the practice that you want.

Jonathan Hawkins: And it’s, I’ve heard others talk about this. I can’t remember. I dunno if it’s Steve Jobs, somebody that’s you, you get to a point in your life, in your career and you look back and you can see the points and sort of the line that was drawn. And it sort of makes sense as you look back, but when you’re in it, it doesn’t necessarily make sense.

And I look at mine and you know, I tried a lot of things over the years and, and I’m like, well, I didn’t really like that. So I quit doing that. And then I tried this and I [00:43:00] slowly sort of came to where I am now to an area that really was interesting to me that I could sit with for many years and just continue to just grow and learn and, and it engaged me long enough. I imagine you had probably similar experience.

Scott Zucker: Yeah. You know, I, I also wanna separate out the focus on business and maybe the concept of, you know, making money as a lawyer, practicing law, to separate it from the, again, the humanity of who we are as people. You always have to have, save room for yourself, your family, you know, that balance. And that’s not easy too, especially when you’re operating your own business or, you know, running your own law firm.

But, but I have found, and maybe this goes back to my writing, my novels. You know, I’ve, a slow marathon runner over the years. A very bad golfer, but I love it. You know, I mean, try to find the things that balance your life so [00:44:00] that you’re not feeling like you are working all the time as well. And that’s hard to do.

We, our, our culture as lawyers is to focus a lot of us, you know, billable hour. Well, you know, as long as there’s an hour and a day I could work it and make money there. There is a balance. It’s not easy to see when you’re a younger lawyer, but it’s important, like you said, to look back and go, I’m glad I spend a little time doing this with my family and I’m glad I did these travels with my family.

I mean, that you time passes pretty quickly. You wanna try to get in as much as you can. So I wanna advise people, we can talk about building businesses and working hard all day long, and I’m a big believer of it ’cause I am an A type worker, but find the balance, find the things that you enjoy that are your hobbies, and try to, you know, fit that into your world.

Jonathan Hawkins: So let’s dig into that a little bit. you you seem very grounded and centered to me. Have you always been this way or is this something you learned later and you’re looking back and say, I [00:45:00] should have, I should have been doing this earlier in my life?

Scott Zucker: I, had a straight path from the beginning. I, I’m, people make fun of me all the time. I’m, I’m very, you know, school, college law, school practice. I knew what I wanted to do. I knew, I, I, I, I actually thought I was gonna go into law school for public service, for politics, for, for leadership in, in policy driven areas. A lot of wrongs that needed right in the world sort of thing. It didn’t work out that way, which is fine, but it, but it, it, I had a very much a straight path, my wife and I just celebrated our 37th wedding anniversary. I have two children that are, one is married with a child, one’s getting married next week.

So I’ve been very lucky in terms of having a, you know, a, a strong family unit, friends and family around us to keep us grounded and, you know, and, I will tell you this, I mean, from, from the point of view, what we, you’re asking about our personalities [00:46:00] and what drives us. I’m sure this is true for you and certainly for your listeners.

You know, many of us are goal oriented, so there’s nothing wrong with that. And I talk to my kids about this all the time. I mean, being motivated to, to succeed not just about the money, but the personal feeling of that you’ve, you’ve worked hard to achieve something is, is a strong motivator. There’s also a motivator called fear.

And, and I think that can also be part of who we are. We, we are afraid of. What happens if we don’t stay on that path and do the things that we’re supposed to do and work hard. So I, I like a little fear mixed into the excitement and energy of, of a goal. So I, you know, I, I urge your listeners to recognize that all these balances, but, fear and failure can be a motivator as well.

Jonathan Hawkins: Great point. That motivates me for sure. I, I think there is a, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a line that you don’t want to cross. You don’t want it to be crippling fear, but, but a little bit [00:47:00] of fear is a great motivator. It really is. And if you can, if you don’t feel it, if you can create it somehow it

Scott Zucker: then, and then the, I I agree with you. And then the other side of it is for those of us, you know, with, with families, is, is that you, you want to your kids and others, I believe are always. Looking, I mean, they’re, they’re watching, they’re learning and you’re trying to set role models and, and be, be an example.

You know, you gotta, you gotta do the right things. And, and sometimes that, that’s the important side of it too, is, I, my expression I wish I, maybe I can trademark it, is, you know, be your legacy. be your legacy. So be the person you wanna be to create that history of, of who you are and what you create.

That’s what’s led me to the practice. That’s what led me to the writing of the books. That’s what led me to the ethical wills. That’s what that’s pushed me actually through some, you know, 25, 26 mile [00:48:00] runs of like, you know, you gotta, be who you believe you should be.

Jonathan Hawkins: I love that. I love that. So let, let me, I wanna step back. We’ve, you know, it’s clear to me you’re an entrepreneur. I wonder how long you’ve had this, maybe you’ve had it since you were a kid, but there’s an interesting thing. My sense is, there’s no data behind this, but most writers are the freewheeling artists, starving artists.

They’re, they’re not business people usually. I can pick a few examples, I’m sure. But you are a writer. You’ve been a writer your entire life. You also have this entrepreneurial drive. They typically, you don’t find people that have both of those elements. Have you ever thought

about that?

Scott Zucker: I, I have, I mean, I will tell you that, that my dream of being a novelist and, writing as a career, I would be, I, I’d be broke. I mean, there’s no, I don’t know how, especially in this market with, with novelists, you, you know, people don’t make money. So I realized that I could only do [00:49:00] this as a hobby and not as my career.

I always joke when I see these movies, you know, that, that people say to their spouses, you know, honey, I’m just gonna write, write a novel. And, you know, don’t worry about it. We’ve got, got everything covered. It’s like, it’s so hard to, I mean, there are people out there that are successful at it. Look, I believe me, I wish I was John Grisham every day.

I just so envy the ability. And I heard about him speaking at a conference recently. He writes a book every year, starts like fresh on January 1st, and that’s what he does. He, he gets to be creative every day to write. And, and make a living out of it. And I just, I wish I could do that. I realized that, that I couldn’t, and that was, so, there’s a side of me that’s creative, but there’s this whole side of me that’s so practical.

So I realized that I had to keep my day job. I would get up early, like very early. I’d come into the office and I’d sit at my desk and I’d write [00:50:00] before people came into the office. And then I’d put on my lawyer hat and work the rest of the day. And I’d come in and I’d write a chapter, you know, off and on for years and finally write the novel.

So there’s been a practical side to it. I wish I could say I was sort of free and loose about that. If, if anybody wants to sign it, sign me to a contract to just write books. I probably would give up, give up my practice at this point. But, and look, I’m working on a book right now. It, it, it is the sequel to my first novel sequel to Chain of Custody, the Continuing Adventures of the protagonist young lawyer who fought the big fight. Boy, it’s hard to write it’s still hard to write. I come in, I see that blank white page, and I, you know, I write a chapter.

Jonathan Hawkins: It’s, it reminds me that the Stephen Pressfield book, the, the War of Art, I think that’s what it is. Or it’s just, it is just a battle to get it out there. It’s funny, you know, growing up I played the [00:51:00] drums and I was in high school band, you know, a band in high school. That, and we played, and I wanted to be a rock star.

That’s what I wanted to be. And I thought I was gonna be one. Thankfully the practical side kicked in. Because even if, and, you know, I still love music and I love musicians. You can be the best musician in the world if, if you could even say that. So talented, play anything, all these things, and you could still never make it.

You’d be starving and all this, and writing’s probably the same. You could be the best novelist, but it, you almost, it’s like a, you need a little bit of luck. You need that lucky break or whatever the, the spark to get there. And so you gotta be practical. That’s how, at least that was my conclusion.

Scott Zucker: but I’ll tell you something about the, about with the book, and I think that this might be true for your drumming. You know, go out, get seen out, get asked out. I wanna see you on stage playing your drums. Maybe you’ll be discovered. there’s American Idol out there. People are still getting discovered.

[00:52:00] I talk to people about my books. I share my books with people. You know, you never know. Maybe one day somebody’s gonna pick up the book and go, eh, you know, you’re a good writer. Maybe you know, you can write another one. So you never know. I, I am not giving up until it’s done. Like, Jonathan, we gotta, we gotta go out there and you gotta play the drums. And I gotta write.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, writers are different. You don’t wanna see the old guy musicians, you know? I went to see, I’ll tell this story. I went to see the drummer of Pink Floyd. I can’t remember his name now, but he was on tour a few years ago and he had all these young musicians around him and he’s like 80 behind the drum sets, right?

He is, he’s old. It’s the first time I saw three of the audience members walked in with walkers. I mean, they were walking in, you know, it was like, it was, it was great show, but I don’t want to be that guy. But it, but he, you know, he filled it up ’cause he was in Pink Floyd. But well, there’s still time.

Maybe,

maybe, maybe I’ll

make it.

Scott Zucker: there, there’s, oh, there’s always time. There’s always [00:53:00] time. You never know. Some of these guys, you know, look, there’s, there’s writers that’s maybe that gives me hope is there’s writers out there that get discovered late in life. So, you know,

Jonathan Hawkins: yeah. Yeah.

Scott Zucker: I, I, I’ve always been trying to get my book and I’ve, I’ve sent this to, producers. I’ve liked, I visual when I write, just as a, a side about the writing, I’m a very visual writer. So what, what helps me write is I see the scene and I visualize the conversation or the event or the incident, and then I’ll write it because I visualize it. I think all of my books are really meant to be movies.

I don’t write ’em the screenplays, but I write them, you know, visually. So I am hopeful one day. We’re gonna see one of these books as a movie, but you never give up. You know, you, you never know. There’s a lot of bad movies out there too.

Jonathan Hawkins: All right, so you got a moment to, to plug what’s the, what’s the first novel or.

Scott Zucker: First one is called Chain of Custody, second one’s called Rally on Two. And the last one’s called Battle for Life. Now, and I, I will share this. [00:54:00] So the Battle for Life story, just going back to the, to the Ethical will writing, essentially is an ethical will. It’s written as a story, as a father and a son. My father was in World War ii. So I was, I was the youngest of four children. So my father was older when I was born. And that sort of, I lost him when I was still younger. But he was at a famous battle of Okinawa at the end of World War II on a, on an aircraft carrier that was hit by Kamikazes.

It’s a famous battle. It’s a famous naval incident. And he was very quiet about it. I really didn’t understand the full impact of his story until after he was gone. And I knew I always wanted to write about it. And I knew my point of view of an ethical will to share a story between a father and a son.

So when I wrote Battle for Life, it is the, mythical inspirational story of a 90-year-old man sharing a lesson with [00:55:00] his 60-year-old son who has a 30-year-old grandson. Right? So there’s, there’s family tree, not anything I had, but how I inspired to believe how that family message would be shared all in the back draft of World War II and his experiences.

So, I, I like the story because it’s based upon my dad’s experience. It’s, it’s, it’s a sharing of a message. Through the storytelling of his experiences. So I like that book. I can visually see it. I have lots of pictures of, you know, of, of his ship and how he was as a, as a dapper 19-year-old, as a naval, uh, semen in 1944. It’s pretty crazy.

Jonathan Hawkins: That’s a cool concept. I,

I’ll check it out. But yeah, anybody on this? Go check out his books. I assume they’re on amazon.

Scott Zucker: they are, they are. Absolutely.

Jonathan Hawkins: Alright, two more questions. Two more questions. We’ll start with. [00:56:00] For anybody out there thinking about starting a firm, maybe early stages. Any pieces of advice maybe you’d give to those folks?

Scott Zucker: yeah, I believe I can’t, I couldn’t have done it alone. So if you’re thinking about starting your own firm by yourself, that’s a really tough enterprise. you know, Maybe it’s not another lawyer that you’re working with, but at least you know, a strong paralegal or a strong legal assistant, someone that you can back you up is sort of how I feel about a partnership in any sort of business enterprise.

It’s really hard to go it alone and it’s also more fun to do it with other people. There’s this sort of, suffering together that happens when you do these projects with others. So I encourage people to be entrepreneurial. I believe in it. I support it, but with the right team approach.

Jonathan Hawkins: Okay, last question. We’ve talked about this in a lot of different ways in this conversation, but as you sit here and you think about the future and [00:57:00] everything you’ve done and grandkids and all these things, what do you want your legacy to be?

Scott Zucker: Wow. That’s a great finished question. There’s so many elements to who we are as people that we want our legacy to be. I believe if nothing else, and this is one thing my father, I remember my father saying all the time, to thine own self be true, that some shakespearean, I don’t even know the play, but he used to always say to that own self, be true. So conceptually for me, it’s, a matter of, being someone of integrity and love and support and, family, you know, all, all those things that make people look back on you and say, that was a good person.

Right? So whether that’s in the practice of law where you work hard for your clients to get good results and you take care of your clients and be responsive and responsible to those people that, [00:58:00] that pay you to serve them, that’s, that’s one area, certainly to your family and the responsibility you have to your family and, and to your friends and to your loved ones to, to be there for them.

I mean, that’s, that’s the other side of it, those two pieces. Are essential. You know, lastly, there’s, there’s things that we all do in our communities. I’ve, I’ve been involved in, we didn’t even talk about things that I’ve, I’ve volunteered with and had leadership with my community. I think that’s a message as well, because we all need help.

We all need each other to get through whatever we’re getting through. So, so I guess it, it’d be my legacy would be that people look back and go, you know, he, he had integrity and he cared about us as clients, us as family, and us as a community.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I love that, Scott. And with that we’ll wrap up. But for people out there that wanna get in touch with you, maybe they wanna learn about ethical wills, maybe they wanna learn about self-storage maybe they wanna hire you as a mediator. What’s, what’s the best way to get in touch with you?

Scott Zucker: The world famous email, [00:59:00] scott@wzlegal.com. I’m always checking my emails, that’s for sure. I love the fact that you have followers that wanna learn about, building their law practices. I think you’ve been a great resource for those folks, and I, I, I love the fact that I can help in any way for those folks that have those same questions, on any of the topics that we’ve talked about today.

But boy, you did a good job. You really made me open up too. I I really, haven’t talked about a lot of these things in a, in a while, so it’s really been a joy. Jonathan, thanks for having me on.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well again, thanks for coming on Scott.

OutroUpdatedWebsite-1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the founding partner podcast. Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to stay up to date on the latest episodes. You can also connect with Jonathan on LinkedIn and check out the show notes. With links to resources mentioned throughout our discussion by visiting www.lawfirmgc.com. We’ll see you next [01:00:00] time for more origin stories and insights from successful law firm founders.