Elise Buie: [00:00:00] And so people who succeed in our firm have truly the highest level of responsibility and personal accountability.

Jonathan Hawkins: And you mentioned sort of the remote firm. You know, obviously hiring is the first key. But how do you promote the culture and the comradery in a remote firm? And it’s a challenge, I mean, it is. And you gotta learn how to do it and figure it out. And any tips you have would be greatly appreciated.

Elise Buie: Yeah, well, it’s funny.

Jonathan Hawkins: To others.

Elise Buie: it’s funny that you asked that today. We literally just completed a small group retreat in our firm potluck this weekend. Like I’ve had, you know, 25 people at my home, you know, from Thursday till yesterday. And so it is, we do all kinds of things. I mean, we do these quarterly small group retreats.

We do quarterly leadership retreats. We do a firm potluck once a year. [00:01:00] We do all kinds of things on Zoom, where we have connection hour.

Welcome to the Founding Partner Podcast. Join your host, Jonathan Hawkins, as we explore the fascinating stories of successful law firm founders. We’ll uncover their beginnings, triumph over challenges, and practice growth. Whether you aspire to launch your own firm, have an entrepreneurial spirit, or are just curious about the legal business, you’re in the right place.

Let’s dive in.

Jonathan Hawkins: Welcome to Founding Partner podcast. I’m your host, Jonathan Hawkins. This is a podcast where I get to interview law firm founders and owners, hear about their journeys, and hopefully learn a lot about what they have learned along the way so I can implement it with my firm. And maybe you guys listening can implement it with yours.

So today’s guest I’m really excited about. We had to reschedule this a few times, [00:02:00] but we made it happen. And so welcome to the show. We got Elise Buie today. She is a family law and estate planning attorney in Seattle. Elise, welcome to the show. Why don’t you tell us about yourself, your firm, and then we’ll dive in.

Elise Buie: Sure. Thanks so much for having me, and thank you for the reschedules, those that were on me. I really appreciate it. So I, like he said, I do own a family, an estate planning law firm in Seattle. I’ve been running the firm for about 10 and a half years now. We are a remote firm. We’ve always been remote, so even before it was COVID cool to be remote.

So that was kind of an interesting journey for us. It is we have approximately 40 ish people right now between employees, you know, contractors and we are forever evolving. We’ve brought on a very high [00:03:00] level leader recently, which is a huge thing for me. And so, you know, it’s probably something we can dig into.

How do we owners buy back a little bit of our time and sanity in this process?

Jonathan Hawkins: We all want that,

Elise Buie: Yeah,

Jonathan Hawkins: hard to come by sometimes. So what, so you do family law and estate planning, so what’s the balance there? I’m curious about you know, how those two practice series work and how maybe the percentage of your firm.

Elise Buie: We are definitely by far heavier in the family law arena and we started doing estate planning a few years ago really it was a decision on my part that I had been referring out all my clients to this other estate planning attorney, and I thought, well, that was sweet of me to literally just develop this guy’s practice.

And so.

Jonathan Hawkins: When you announced that was like the worst announcement ever for

Elise Buie: Luckily we’re still friends.

Jonathan Hawkins: [00:04:00] yeah, exactly. So, so I wanna, I wanna start back. So you’re from, you’re originally from New Orleans, right? Nawlins.

Elise Buie: I, am.

Jonathan Hawkins: yeah. So, how did you end up in Seattle?

Elise Buie: Yeah. Good question. It’s a little bit of a trek. Well, when Hurricane Katrina hit, which I just have to put a plug in, last night is the beginning of this National Geographic series, hurricane Katrina, A Race Against Time. I literally watched like three episodes last night, kind of traumatic, but I was like, wow, that was wild. So that storm moved us, like we evacuated initially to Georgia, then to Minnesota, and then I got remarried, moved to Seattle. Had to get relicensed in Seattle and after having gotten relicensed in Minnesota, and so, you know, on that third bar exam, I, you know, there I was all settled in Washington working for another attorney, you, know, doing my thing and [00:05:00] she invited me to come on full-time.

And when she offered me the salary, I was like, girl, you’ve got to be joking me. So I thought, yeah, no, I can’t do this. And so I started my own practice and have kind of been going ever since then. And it was fun because she was somebody I was able to work with and really mentor through. I mean, she’s now passed away, but through the end of her life.

And she was like, gosh, I wish I’d met you earlier. Like, my firm would’ve done better. I was like. But it was kind of cool ’cause she really helped me get into Washington family law, understand all the things I needed to know, introduced me to a lot of people and I was able, able to help her. And so it was just one of those kind of cool, symbiotic relationships at a great time.

Jonathan Hawkins: So you, so you said your firm there in Seattle has been remote or virtual the entire time. Was that [00:06:00] because of your experience through Katrina or some other reason?

Elise Buie: Well, it’s funny you asked that actually. When Katrina hit, you know, I actually was married to my ex-husband at the time who was exceedingly tech savvy and kind of tech forward. So he ran a remote law firm in Louisiana when Katrina hit. So, I kind of got to see what was possible, you know, really early on.

When I started my firm in Seattle, we had an office in downtown Seattle, a little one. I mean, we still have a little office in downtown Seattle. We don’t go to it very much at all. I mean, I’ve only stepped into it one time, I think in five years. So, but I knew at the time that I started this firm.

That I needed the flexibility. I mean, I was newly remarried. My husband manages oceanographic research vessels all over the world, so his work requires him to travel just [00:07:00] all over the place. And so I was like, I don’t know how I’m gonna do my job, parent these children travel. I was like, you know, something’s gotta give here.

And so lucky for me that Washington is very forward focused and progressive and you know, we had electronic filing from long ago and we were able to do a lot of the things. So I have been able to do this remotely for a very long time, and that has allowed me to really be able to be a good mom, a good wife, and a good lawyer.

Jonathan Hawkins: So, I mean, when COVID hit, you know, accelerated everybody else, you know, the, those, these slow lawyers finally got up to speed. But it also changed the way lawyers interact with clients. So, you know, it used to be a lot of clients wanted to come in and meet people in person, and now they don’t care about that anymore. Back when you started the started was that important at all? Or how did you get into that [00:08:00] back in the day?

Elise Buie: Well, back in the day, I did meet people in person a lot. I mean, they would come downtown to our little office. We had a conference room attached, and so, and I would meet them in person.

But even then, I think because of Seattle’s population, super tech heavy, you know what I mean? Like we’ve got Amazon people, Microsoft people, they do not wanna sit in Seattle traffic, like what they’re thinking, are you kidding me? I can push a few buttons and see you. I’m all good. So, you know, I think because of that population, the traffic in Seattle, which everybody just despises that it kind of made it easier to do it remotely. People were not as dead set on meeting. Now that being said, I mean, I am definitely the person that every so often I might be involved in a case, especially in a collaborative family law case. I’d go to my client’s home. I [00:09:00] mean, I remember one client, she was struggling. I mean, I literally picked up Starbucks coffee and drove to her house, met her in her kitchen.

She was in her PJ’s and fuzzy slippers and I was like, you know, we can do this here just as easy as we can do it anywhere. And so, you know, in that regard, I would say that one-to-one meeting was super powerful. But I mean, I can still do that now If I want. you know, most people don’t want me showing up at their house though.

Jonathan Hawkins: If you bring coffee anytime, you know, so when you, when you practiced law in New Orleans, did you do family at all down there or was it something

Elise Buie: No, I did not. I did insurance, defense litigation. I worked for a pretty big firm, did med mals, you know, general liability defense. Then I quit the practice of law to stay home with children. Then, you know, Katrina hit, moved, did all that, evacuating all around, and got divorced and then went back. And So in [00:10:00] Minnesota though, I started a family law firm in Minnesota because I was going through a divorce, dealing with all the co-parenting things.

And I thought if I’m gonna study like 20,000 hours on how to co-parent successfully, I might as well just put that into, you know, practice.

Jonathan Hawkins: So how long were you in Minnesota? I mean, you a firm there and then,

Elise Buie: I did, yeah, in for five years. We lived in Minnesota for five years.

Jonathan Hawkins: Okay. Okay. So then, so you’ve did the, you’ve done this twice. So I’m curious what it’s like to move to a new state where you really don’t. You’re not in the embedded in the legal community,

Elise Buie: No,

Jonathan Hawkins: gotta start a criteria again. What was that like? You had to do it twice.

Elise Buie: twice. Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: I mean, once is a lot.

Elise Buie: it Twice, is a lot. is, it’s a process. I think that one, my personality kind of lets it roll with it and I’m convinced being [00:11:00] from New Orleans is critical to my success because, I mean, this is gonna sound ridiculous, but you know how, and you know, ’cause you know you have a history with New Orleans, you know, the south, the whole thing in New Orleans, you do not get in an elevator anywhere that you do not make friends with people.

So anywhere you go, the grocery store buildings, wherever you’re going, you are making connections. I had no idea that was very weird to New Orleans. So I moved to Minnesota and there I am chatting it up with the people at the grocery store, the people at the target, people in buildings when I’m, you know, going to job interviews and when everyone’s looking at me like I have mental health illness, I was like, oh, I’m like, this is a different environment.

Like they do not have conversations, share recipes, talk about their grandma’s, whatever, in elevators. [00:12:00] Well, it turns out that they just didn’t know that they wanted to do this, so. They all got kind of engaged. And so it became almost a thing where when I would meet people, people would be like, you are very different than most people from Minnesota, most people from Seattle.

And so in a way I think that helped as I networked and you know, reached out to people because they’d be like, oh yeah, you’re that odd one from New Orleans who’s gonna talk to people? So, ’cause in Seattle people are very just quiet, reserved. I mean they call it the Seattle freeze and that’s not a joke. I mean, you can like live here and not know your neighbors like, and that is wild to me.

Coming from New Orleans, that is not a possibility in New Orleans, not even slightly, I mean your neighbor is in your living room while you are pulling the boxes out of [00:13:00] your U-Haul truck like. You know, I mean, they do not even give you time to get the boxes off the truck before They’re like, Hey, what’s up?

Where you from? You know? What do you want for dinner tonight? What’s your favorite cocktail? I’ll bring it over. We can sit on the porch.

Jonathan Hawkins: They’re definitely gonna ask about your cocktail for sure. In New Orleans.

Elise Buie: Oh yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: yeah. You get your drive through daiquiris, you know, you know how it is.

Elise Buie: I didn’t know that was weird either till I went to college and I was like, oh, y’all don’t have drive through  daiquiris in Tennessee. What a funny thing.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, so, so yeah. So back, you know. So You had to learn the practice

area in Minnesota and learn the people and develop all the businesses, and all of a sudden you pick up and move and you have to do it all again. You know, obviously you’re very outgoing and, and you’re good at, at that sort of thing, but you know, how do you sort of establish the practice and get out [00:14:00] there and say, Hey, I’m here

Elise Buie: Yeah,

Jonathan Hawkins: send me cases.

Elise Buie: I would say here in Washington it was very much related to my work as a guardian ad litem. I came in and was able to start working as a guardian ad litem in family law matters very quickly, you know, and two, I, because of the attorney I worked for before, she helped me know who are the top 15 family law lawyers in the city.

So I reached out to every single one of them, took them to lunch, you know, got to know them. And inevitably as is it is true everywhere, family law, you get booming business sometimes where you can’t take it all or you have a conflict or whatever. So I was able to bring on cases, you know, almost immediately when I started my practice from that.

And then it just grew from there. And I think, you know, being a guardian ad litem. And, you know, getting better and better at that work to where, you know, [00:15:00] attorneys would very much request me to be the guardian ad litem. So then there you are in cases where there’s two excellent attorneys on both sides and you’re developing those relationships.

So in a way, that was such a lucky way for me to do it, because then again, I kept getting referrals from different attorneys all around and then have gotten referrals from courts, bailiffs, you know, a lot of things related to the guardian ad litem work that I did. I don’t currently do guardian ad litem work anymore, but it was a big part of us getting started for sure.

And then the other thing that I did was I got a contract with the state. Almost immediately to do dependency work. And so that was my safety net. Like, so when I’m thinking here I am starting this practice, I have this contract to do dependency work and it was a full-time contract. And I thought to myself, if all else fails, [00:16:00] I have that, I have my guardian ad litem work, do you know what I mean?

Like I’d be able to put food on my table and make sure I was doing what I needed to do to support my kids. And then I kind of got that entrepreneur bug and I just really dug in and you know, really decided that I could do more, I could help more people, I could bring on people, you know, and it’s just kind of grown from there.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, so let’s talk about that. I mean, you, you got 40 people now when you started, I assume it was just you. That’s a lot of growth you know, in 10 years. you know, what was that beginning of that process look like? I mean, I’ve always, you know, my personally in talking to others, I feel like of have to make a decision.

Hey, I’m gonna go for it. What was the process for you?

Elise Buie: Well, it was interesting because when I very first started, I actually had two other people that came to me very immediately. So [00:17:00] they were, I mean, it’s kind of a long story, but I was getting cases. The lower value cases from this larger firm. And so they had these, well, one of ’em was their employee and another one was kind of like a friend.

Like the owner went to the dental hygienist and that was the wife of this guy. And so she really was like, you know, Elise, if you’ll hire him and then, you know, we’ll send over this paralegal too, then, you know, that would be really good. She’s like, and I would feel good about all these things. And I’m like, okay, that’ll be fine.

So I didn’t realize just how scary it was to have people, you know, on the payroll immediately, but the minute the guy was able to get his license, ’cause at the time he wasn’t licensed, he, I can’t remember exactly, maybe he had just graduated and was taking the bar. And so he then could take on doing the dependency work very quickly.

So then I was able to grow the other side of the business while he was kind of managing the [00:18:00] dependency work. So, and I don’t remember actually if there was some set point. I mean the reality was as a couple of years in, all of a sudden I had four children, I mean two in college, two in private school in Seattle.

I mean, I’m talking like, you know, $300,000 a year in student, you know, tuition, payments. And so there wasn’t so much deciding as there was survival and my ex-husband is not great at his part of the financial piece of all this. So I was like, well Elise, you better get this figured out real quick. And you know, ’cause you got tuition bills and so I mean it, it was a wild ride.

I mean, I do not mean to at all say it was easy. I mean, it was hard. I mean, you know, I was literally like. On little pieces of paper, figuring [00:19:00] out how I was making every tuition payment, everything. And you know, I was calling the school and being like, if I pay you five days late, is that gonna be, you know, a huge thing?

Like what’s the deal? I mean, it was tough.

Jonathan Hawkins: Wow. So, I, I, I’m feeling it.

Elise Buie: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: hearing you talk about it. I’m feeling it. what was, what was, you know, this is another thing, you know, people that want to grow, it’s, it’s, you gotta get clients and then you gotta get people to help work, work it, and, and you know, what was your experience, what was easier for you?

And then, you know, part of this too, in the backdrop is you have a remote virtual firm back before anybody else really did it. So was that a challenge to get to recruit people to come work for a remote firm, or was it easier?

Elise Buie: I, at the time that, So, before COVID, we stayed very close to our little just. Three of us, four of us kind of thing. Not until after COVID started did we [00:20:00] really explode our growth. And so I have found I mean, to be honest, I don’t know that I see a difference in getting clients and getting people. I al I see it really as the flip side of the same thing of like marketing, you know, kind of being your authentic self out in the world and, you know, trying to bring in aligned people and really repel, misaligned people.

I would say that I did not do as good a job repelling, misaligned people. At the beginning, and so nor did I really dig in good enough in the hiring process. I am definitely, definitely the weak link in our firm’s hiring process because I am a, oh, I can help that person. You know what I mean? Like, oh, I see those red flags, but that’ll be fine.

I’ll be able to help them, like, [00:21:00] you know, and my team is like, yeah, no, Elise, we’re not gonna do that.

Jonathan Hawkins: So, have you been removed from the hiring process largely now.

Elise Buie: I have largely been removed. I still, we have this one area that. We have all we can all agree to. I have what we call the anti EO interview. So it’s the very last interview, just like 15 minutes. ’cause I cannot work with eos, period. I have learned that if you are an eo, you and I are not gonna get along at all.

And then I’m gonna avoid that person. You know what I mean? Like, I don’t even wanna get on a meeting or anything. So I have to do an anti EO meet interview and, ’cause I really need to work with growth minded people. People who are kind of positive and just like, we got this, you know, and they’ll roll with things and I cannot work with a ho hum.

You know? Or like, that’s how [00:22:00] we always do it. And I’m like, well, if we’ve always done it that way, we probably need to shake it up a little, you know?

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Yeah. When I was coming up, the firms, they would call it the

Elise Buie: Yeah,

Jonathan Hawkins: We, we’d go out. See if you pass that. Lot of ways to fail it. Lots of ways.

Elise Buie: lots of ways.

Jonathan Hawkins: So, so back to the growth. This is another question that, that I think about a lot. It’s do you hire before you’re overwhelmed with work

Elise Buie: Oh,

Jonathan Hawkins: you get overwhelmed with work? Then hire, what’s your approach?

Elise Buie: we hire before we get overwhelmed. I mean, our mindset is we are hiring constantly, like we are filling a pipeline of aligned potential candidates all the time. And I kind of like to look at it as like a roadmap. So we also use contractors. So like if we are. Feeling like maybe we’re getting a little overwhelmed, then we might hire a contractor to come [00:23:00] in, take off some of that pressure.

You know, maybe they’re doing 10 hours a week, then maybe they’re doing 20. Once they’ve hit 20 hours a week, we’re looking at a W2 hire. You know, and then whether that person may or may not be appropriate, you know, depending on what they’re looking for, what we’re looking for. And so we kind of are doing it like in step, you know, constantly.

We’re going in and out. And, I mean, the hiring process, I would say is probably one of the most important things when you own a firm is paying attention to it. Making sure you are building out a process that has a robust entry point into your pipeline, and then ensuring that you do have the interviews and que.

It set up as well as any testing, personality testing, or maybe skill tests or something you’re doing and really digging in. And I mean, we are now to a point where, I mean, if we [00:24:00] get 20 applicants, I mean we are likely turning away 18 of them, like at the very beginning, you know, from not being a culture fit.

Jonathan Hawkins: So how did you figure out how to design this hiring process?

Elise Buie: Oh.

Jonathan Hawkins: you learn? Where did you learn

Elise Buie: That’s a great question. Two things. The top grading there’s a book, you know, top grading, there’s a class I love Top grading and then the WHO process. And so we really have combined those and I would say we rely heavily on the WHO process and really, you know, we prepare scorecards so that?

we are, you know, looking at comparing candidates to scorecards.

And we do it all the same way. You know, we start with our culture interview and then we kind of go on from there, depending on what the position is. And if the person is not a hell yes at every stage, they’re a no, you know, and they are getting knocked out and. [00:25:00]

Jonathan Hawkins: I love that, so, okay, so for the people out there that say, Hey, I gotta fill the spot, man, I’m so busy. I may not find a hell yes. I just gotta find somebody. What would you say to that?

Elise Buie: I, I mean, that’s okay in that that’s gonna happen, but be prepared for that to blow up, you know, that person to just resign on a dime or you know, whatever, which is okay. That’s part of the growth process too. I mean, I can’t tell you how many people I have had through the years that I have brought on, where at some point I asked myself, I’m like, huh, this person is really not a cultural fit.

You know? And then I of course pull out that handy mirror and ask myself, okay, Elise, which part of this did you have to do with? Usually a lot. And I’m like, okay, you know, what mistake did you make and where was that? And So, and then I have what I call my toleration list. And so when I find that somebody really is not a culture fit in our firm, [00:26:00] one.

My COO will start hearing about them. Like, you know, they’ll hear me mention them multiple times and she’s like, oh, somebody is heading to the toleration list. And you know, it’s a little bit of a joke, but it’s, I mean, when we realize somebody is misaligned culturally, we realize it’s not good for them and it’s not good for us.

And so really the best thing I can do is put ’em on my toleration list. Have very frank conversations with them about whatever the expectations are, what’s going on, have good coaching and support, you know, to see if there’s anything we can do. You know? ’cause like if I have improperly brought somebody on that is not a culture fit, like, I mean, sometimes I owe them an apology, you know, I’m like, whoopsy, you know, this was probably not right from the beginning.

Kind of to your point. Maybe I, brought him on in a time when. [00:27:00] We were really busy and we didn’t even do the culture interview, you know?

Jonathan Hawkins: So, you know, I think anybody that’s run a firm long, long enough, you know, culture, the importance of culture and culture fit and values and all that really becomes extremely evident.

Elise Buie: Oh.

Jonathan Hawkins: But it’s not always that way in the beginning maybe it was for you all the way, but how long did it take you to sort of figure that out and figure out the culture and how important it was?

Elise Buie: It took me probably, I would say six years until I really understood to the point where I would never, like, you know, post that six year mark. I mean, I don’t think I have considered somebody who is not a culture fit, you know what I mean? Like it has become very, very important. And you know, we are strong to say like, yeah, this [00:28:00] is a no, you know, and we don’t feel bad.

Whereas I think before I, again, it was my fault, I would feel bad and I would be like, here I is this person applying. And they’re a lovely person and they’re, you know, got the skills and, but I mean, they can be the most lovely person in the world with the skills, but if they are not a culture fit, and in our firm, being a remote firm has this very unique thing.

I mean, one, you better be very tech savvy. You know, you need to be able to deal with things, resolve things like figure things out. But two, this is probably the most important thing. You have to take the unfettered flexibility that we give you and literally turn that with the most highest personal responsibility because no one is watching over you every minute.

Nobody is, you know, nobody knows if you’re at the park playing with your [00:29:00] kids, you know, from 12 to two, which is fine, but then you better be doing the work you needed to do from 12 to two at some other point, and communicate with your legal team. Do you know what I mean? And have all those things. And so people who succeed in our firm have truly the highest level of responsibility and personal accountability.

Jonathan Hawkins: And you mentioned sort of the remote firm. You know, obviously hiring is the first key. But how do you promote the culture and and the comradery in a remote firm? And it’s a challenge. I mean, it is. And you gotta learn how to do it and figure it out. And any tips you have would be greatly appreciated.

Elise Buie: Yeah, well, it’s funny.

Jonathan Hawkins: To others.

Elise Buie: it’s funny that you asked that today. We literally just completed a small group retreat in our firm potluck this weekend. Like I’ve had, you know, 25 people at my home, you know, from Thursday till [00:30:00] yesterday. And so it is, we do all kinds of things. I mean, we do these quarterly small group retreats.

We do quarterly leadership retreats. We do a firm potluck once a year. We do all kinds of things on Zoom, where we have connection hour. We, you know, do random events where we do arts and crafts. We do cooking classes, we’ve done yoga classes together, like just a variety of different things. Then we also just do random small things where, you know, somebody might go host a lunch in Seattle, like maybe there’s a few people gonna be around.

And so we’ll be like, oh well let’s go have lunch at Ray’s, you know, and we’ll get that scheduled. We go to conferences together. I often bring multiple people and invite multiple people from different areas to conferences. I mean, just a few weeks ago I had some lawyers come to an A [00:31:00] FCC conference in New Orleans, so I hosted them and you know, went on a garden district tour and took them to commanders and, you know, did the things.

So it definitely takes intentionality for sure. But I guess I don’t think of it as, I feel like I have to do the same intentional things even if I was in an office. ’cause it’s pretty easy for the. The owner to be pretty removed from a lot of things, even when they share an office.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, you get busy doing stuff, that’s for

Elise Buie: Oh yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: So another cool thing you do, at least when we first talked a while back is you have a, it’s a 30 hour work week, but you pay for 40. What you, what, what do you call that and how did you, where did that come from?

Elise Buie: Well, it’s called 30 is the new 40. And it’s funny, I mean, I laugh, it came from our potluck last year and when I announced it, I don’t think [00:32:00] everybody was thrilled. And so, because I think they looked at it as, oh my gosh, we’re gonna be doing all 40 of our hours of work in 30, you know, how’s that gonna work?

Blah, blah, blah. And so it’s funny because this year at the potluck, I did not announce anything. So I was like, okay, I won’t get myself in trouble this year. But interestingly, since we announced it last year, then we beta tested it. We had one of our paralegals who is kind of loves data and loves to dig in on all those things.

She agreed to be our beta tester and literally let us pull down our hours, week over week, track all her KPIs. You know, it was a true like. Let’s test. And then we got a lot of feedback from?

her around what worked, what didn’t, how we could make it better. And so then we were able to roll it out in January.

And we are having, I mean, as typical, some people are absolutely loving it. They do it every week. They hit [00:33:00] their KPIs in 30 hours. They’ve learned to delegate really, really well. You know, and they’re like all into it and they’re, you know, out there living their best lives with their new 10 hours. Then we have other people that are like, yeah, no, I’m not really trying to be that efficient.

At least like I’m really good with my, you know, system and I’m good. And I’m like, great, you work 40 hours, then I don’t care. You know, like that is totally your call. So I would say that, you know, on the whole, it’s very successful. I mean, obviously I would love to see everybody be able to get those 10 hours back because you know, I, I’m older than a lot of those people and I sometimes think they don’t realize how, you know, quick life goes by and how those 10 hours a week. I mean, that, that can be really powerful time. Whether it’s, you could be exercising and like improving your health. You could be spending more time with your family and you could be [00:34:00] pursuing some cool hobby that you don’t have time for.

You know, like, I don’t know. To me as a young lawyer, if someone had given me back my 10 hours, I would’ve been like, oh, that is sweet. Like, I would’ve taken that and been like, I’ll become way more efficient.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, it’s funny, it’s like the opposite of every other law firm. Every other law firm. Law firm is 60, is the new 40,

Elise Buie: right? Exactly. Yeah. No, I mean, it’s funny, but and I, I mean, I laugh about it, but like just yesterday there was a couple here, you know, one of the paralegals and her husband, and when they left yesterday, they were leaving to go on a hike. And they were just talking about how she has been just completely transformed by this.

She used to just be like a total workaholic and constantly working more and more and more. And you know, that whole billable mindset of like, well, I could be earning more if I’m working more. We do not bonus people for working more than the hours that they have set [00:35:00] to work because I don’t want people to get in that mindset and get on that hamster wheel.

So I mean, we bonus people based on KPIs that are more related to behavior. Like how do they provide feedback to their team members? How do they receive feedback? How do they provide unreasonable hospitality to our clients to each other? And So that’s how people get bonuses rather than just like. You know, create this billing churn.

Jonathan Hawkins: So that’s cool. So how do you measure that? How do you measure that for, for bonus purposes?

Elise Buie: Well, we track it. So like in our, you know, they have KPIs around like doing like an unreasonable act of hospitality every week towards a client or towards a team member. And they track it in Clio, like we have created a little, you know, category in the activities. And so VAs can go in and track what’s being done by everybody.[00:36:00]

And then same with like you know, feedback and we have one KPI now related to really celebrating your team members, like really giving kudos when you know those are warranted. ’cause I find we sometimes, me included big time, like there’s me pulling out my mirror again. I forget to say when people do a great job.

You know what I mean? And so we’ve decided to put a KPI on that. So we encourage people to look for when people are doing a good job, you know, and really call it out. I mean, kind of like, you know, when you have kids, they really teach you, you gotta look for the good behavior rather than just only pick out the bad behavior.

Jonathan Hawkins: So, okay, so let’s say somebody does do that recognition who records it, the person that does it, or the person that received it. How, how are you making sure that you

Elise Buie: The,

Jonathan Hawkins: track of that stuff?

Elise Buie: the virtual assistants manage all the recording of those things. So like in if one of those is done, you know, [00:37:00] publicly in a celebration channel where you know, the whole firm sees it, that VA is gonna pull it, and maybe if they’ve done it somewhere else, then likely the person providing the feedback is gonna let the VA know, but they’re gonna record it in Clio.

I mean, we are really kind of crazy, like probably a little over the top, crazy about using Clio as our shared brain for all things so that, you know, like VAs can go in and track all these metrics and I can go in and look at matters and see, you know, everyone, one of our metrics is Clio Hygiene, we call it.

So like that everyone has a forward focused task on every matter, so that if anyone were to pick up a matter, let’s say somebody leaves or somebody’s sick or whatever. I could go in and do that next step on that case without missing a beat. And then I can also look at the Clio notes and there should be a note, a [00:38:00] substantive note regarding client contact within a two week look back on every matter.

So I should be able to see the most recent communication, and it should not be older than two weeks on every matter. So, you know, at a minimum I can go in or somebody can go in and triage things pretty successfully without missing a beat. I mean, let’s say we missed two weeks, but I mean, we don’t, because we track other things, but you know what I mean?

Worst case scenario, you would be in a little two week window where you’re like, oh, I don’t know what happened last week. And that’s a lot easier to handle than, you know. Where a lot of people’s case management PR practices are, and they’re like, I got no idea what’s going on in this case. And we, you know, like everything else, I mean, we had an experience where I had an attorney go on emergency medical maternity leave on a dime.

Like she called [00:39:00] me, I was in a mediation and she’s like, Elise, I need you to step outta the mediation and I need to talk to you. So she tells me that she’s at the doctor’s office, she’s being put on bedrest. She cannot work 20 minutes from now. Like, so I’ve got 20 minutes to pick her brain and understand what is happening in 34 litigation cases while I’m in a mediation.

So you can imagine how cute that was. And after that, this girl was like, oh yeah, we’re never doing that again. Like.

Jonathan Hawkins: wow. So, okay, so when you say like, back to the, the sort of the, you know, they, they make a, a a public call out, something good, somebody did. How do you record that in clue? I’m curious. Is it a time entry, is it a note? Is it.

Elise Buie: It’s a time entry and they put in the activity code for it. You know, so they, you know, so our VAs can track based on activity codes and it would be, you know, a non billable time entry that they are [00:40:00] tracking, you know, but the main thing is to tag it as such, like, you know, so we have a unreasonable hospitality tag so they can go in and search for those things and, yep and that’s just what allows us, we do bonuses quarterly and so like they can earn up to 10% of their quarterly salary in bonus every quarter if they meet certain KPIs. So, you know, we want them to record it so that, I mean, my goal would be that everyone’s getting their 10% bonus.

Jonathan Hawkins: Nice. I like that.

Real quick. Thanks for listening. If you’re getting any value out of this podcast, please take two seconds to hit the subscribe button and leave a five star review. It would really mean a lot to me. Now back to the show.

Jonathan Hawkins: So another thing I like, I went and looked at your website. It’s real. I really like it. That’s a cool website.

Elise Buie: Oh, thanks.

Jonathan Hawkins: Lots of good stuff on there, but one thing that stuck out to me you have all your, your staff on there, all your employees, and [00:41:00] you’ve got a couple, you’ve got a client care coordinator role, then you’ve got a client hospitality coordinator role.

And I’m curious what those two roles do and maybe what’s the difference between them.

Elise Buie: Yeah, well, the client hospitality role is definitely a pretty unique role and it’s a newish role in our office. Like, I mean probably in the last 18 months I’m not gonna remember exactly when she switched from one role to the other. But that role is very much geared towards how do we provide truly unreasonable hospitality to our both potential clients, but also current clients.

And that can be all kinds of things. I mean, in family law. Clients get mad, you know, like they get mad at just all kinds of things. I mean, they are having a bad time usually, you know what I mean? It’s, even if they want their divorce, it’s still difficult, you know, it’s a process. It’s [00:42:00] expensive, it causes drama.

You know, there’s a lot of things. So we have used it and we’ve just recently developed a preventative part of this. So like if a legal pod in our firm feels like they have a client that is like kind of really struggling or having problems, maybe they’re complaining about their bill or they’re not understanding something and they ask.

You know, multiple times they will send it, the legal pod will send it in the preventative feedback loop so then we can watch it and we can pay attention to it. And so our unreasonable hospitality coordinator, she might call that person and be like, you know, what can I help you with? Because none of her work obviously is ever billable.

So clients can talk to her time and time again. They can develop that relationship. They can ask if they wanna ask the same question about their bill 42 times, she is gonna answer it 42 times. And I [00:43:00] mean, she might give 41 different explanations to try to help them understand it. She is gonna be as patient as the day is long and you know, really helping them.

Whereas I’m not saying the legal teams won’t be as patient, but they’ve got so much more pressure, you know, to get the workout. And I mean, you know, lawyers. They have to be in court or be in mediation. And when they’re answering a question, you know, for the 17th time they’re not billing the client for that.

You know, like, they’re like, huh, I have not said this very well. You know, like, what can I do better here? But that becomes a real tension, you know, of them getting their work done. And so we have found that having this unreasonable hospitality role has been very powerful in addressing problems both preventatively, but then also after the fact problems where somebody might be angry about something and they’re like, you know, I wanna talk to Elise.

And a lot of times [00:44:00] talking to a lease as your first line of defense is not the most helpful because a lease might not know all the details of the things you actually really need a lease to know. So that. Unreasonable hospitality coordinator is gonna pick up the phone, call the person, find out everything they’re upset about.

She’s gonna start like an a little investigation. She’s gonna dig in with the legal team, she’s gonna dig in with the billing team, you know, get and collect all her information. She’s gonna make a recommendation about what she thinks, you know, should happen to address whatever the issue is. And then she’s either gonna determine, you know, oh, I got this, I can handle it myself.

Or maybe she does need to elevate it to me, but then I’ve got an entire picture of what has happened. I’ve got a recommendation that’s based on data and you know, information. Not just me on a call with somebody going, huh, that doesn’t sound great. You know, so. It [00:45:00] allows us, I think, to address people’s needs.

We can do it quicker, you know, because all this background work is happening and then any follow-up just gets put on my calendar and I can have those communications and help navigate whatever the problem is. I mean, to be honest, most things get resolved without me, so it’s not and again, that’s another thing that I was really bad at.

I mean, I feel like this could be a whole podcast on all the things Elise is bad at, but um, when somebody would call me and they would be angry, I would just be like, oh, well let’s just give ’em a full refund. I mean, every time. And my billing person one time was like, well, Elise, are you actually like doing anything wrong or are you giving them a refund?

Because they just said they’re mad. And she was like, you know, you probably aren’t gonna be able to successfully pull off this business routine if you give every person a refund who just gets upset. And [00:46:00] so she really started pushing on me to be like, well, did something, you know, did you do something actually fundamentally wrong?

Like, you know, or did they just lose and they’re upset, you know, with you? And, and you know, one time she asked me, she goes, do you tell them they’re all gonna win? And I’m like, no, of course not. We can’t do that. Like, we can’t guarantee results. And she was like, well then that’s just part of the deal, you know?

And so, but it’s hard. I think as the owner, at least it was for me, you know, to listen to upset people and not just immediately be like, just give them the money. Like this will be easier and I’ll just go deal with whatever I gotta go deal with. Whereas now it is a much more thoughtful process and you know, it’s just, it got my emotions out of it and, you know.

Jonathan Hawkins: I tell you, it probably takes a very special person [00:47:00] to, to be able to do that. And, and so I could see hiring the right person that would, that would actually do a lot. I mean, for you, for the clients, for everybody. And you’re taking it away from the actual attorneys, like you said, that are stressed out, have billing every day.

They’re probably not the right person to do it. And I mean, you’ve probably found these people just want somebody to listen to Completely. yell, and scream for a while, right.

Elise Buie: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And if they really need to yell and scream even more, you know, I am willing to hop on and listen to that because I, and You know, I mean, so much of what we deal with is people who are just in fear. I mean, real, genuine fear for their family, their money. I mean, we are dealing with kids and money.

Like those are some important things to people.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, I mean obviously family law is, you know, primetime for that kind of role. I’m wondering what other types of practices, something like that would actually be, [00:48:00] you know, pretty useful as well.

Elise Buie: Criminal law, personal injury, anytime that you’re really dealing with the public, you know, that kind of has a. Like they’re faced with the legal process that they might not understand. I mean, I’ve worked with personal injury attorneys who have put it in place, And it has been game changing to have those deeper conversations about the medical stuff, what’s going on, what kind of trouble are they having, you know, getting into their doctor or getting, you know, help.

And then a lot of times that unreasonable hospitality coordinator can help with that. You know, they might be able to let the attorney know like, oh, you know, this is why we’re having to wait on this and you know, this is what’s going on. It just gives so much more depth and nuance to the communication with the client, which if you ask me, that’s always a win.

The more I can understand what is driving my client, the better I can get to a result that will be a win for [00:49:00] them.

Jonathan Hawkins: And you mentioned working with other attorneys. Maybe that’s a good segue. So you also, in addition to, you know, building and running this firm you’re, you’re a consultant to lawyers as well, so maybe, what sort of, what do you do there and how did you get into that?

Elise Buie: Hmm. Well I got into it randomly because I decided to just put a post out and I was like, I’m gonna do consulting. And I, you know, I thought like maybe one or two people would reach out, but I was a little bit wrong about that. And so we got a lot of interest and I was like, oh, okay. So even with that, I would say again, Elise and her mistake making, again, I am not the right consultant for people who are not willing to do the real work.

And they’re not willing to like, pull their data, learn how to read their data, be able to make data-driven decisions, not, you know, stomach driven [00:50:00] decisions and people who are not willing to be like. Really good leaders, which in my mind starts with pulling out that mirror and accepting that almost every darn problem you’re facing is the leader’s fault.

Like, let’s just be serious. I mean, I could probably name 10 problems in my office right now and explain to you how they tie back to me. You know? And it’s like, okay, but without realizing that you’re just playing this game of pointing your finger out the window at other people, and the same mistakes just repeat over and over again.

I mean, I make a lot of mistakes, but often they’re new mistakes. You know? Like I’m like, oh look, here’s a new one we haven’t done before. And I’m like, yippee, something else for me to learn.

Jonathan Hawkins: So I’m a lawyer out there and I’m thinking, Hey, I, I need to hire somebody to consult with me. What types of people and what problems do you [00:51:00] help solve?

Elise Buie: Well, I mean my favorite clients are family law firm client, you know, family law firm attorney owners just because it’s what I know the best. So, you know, it’s just, and a billable our model in the sense of that was probably one of our biggest revelations, was understanding the leaky bucket of our billing engine and really being able to plug that leaky bucket.

And that would almost be a whole another podcast, but helping people understand how to ensure that they are in fact billing on invoices, the amount that they say and they think they are based on what they’re paying their people. And so, I mean, we were able to plug about a $700,000 leak a few years ago, and it kind of revolutionized everything.

Like it helped us understand. So many things, but so I mean, my favorite clients are family law firm owners, people who are [00:52:00] willing to roll up their sleeves look at their data, people who are absolutely willing to look in the mirror. And I’m just gonna be really blunt, people who can handle a really blunt person.

Like I am not the person who’s gonna just tell somebody what they want to hear, just so we can like, stay friendly and cozy and whatever. Like if I actually think you’re not doing the work and you’re not trying, and you’re not whatever, I’m not gonna keep taking your money. I’m gonna tell you like, I am not the right person for you.

You should go find somebody else who’s just gonna tell you, yay, you, you’re doing great, even though you’re not doing anything. And so because I, I am a firm believer in this work we’re doing as law firm owners, it is hard. I mean, it is just plain hard. You should be getting a benefit from your firm and it should be a genuine benefit.

And when I see people who are taking O home, total owner benefits that [00:53:00] are less than what they could be earning, less than what they could be earning at my firm, less than what they could be earning so many places, I’m like, what are you doing? Like go get a day job. You know? And, and so, I mean I have very, we have tight financial controls in our, our firm.

We run it against those financial controls. Like we are, like, if we start creeping up in our people costs or, you know, creeping up in our operations cost, I mean, we are gonna catch it immediately and I’m gonna be like, what? Why, what are we doing? You know, what is the trade off here and, you know, what are we doing instead?

And I Have found that if you are willing to dig into your data, I mean, it really just changes your whole life because I, I, I don’t sit around and worry about things. I know exactly what our firm is earning week, over week, over week, over week, almost to the [00:54:00] dollar. I mean, it’s kind of wild when you really do understand your data, you’re able to just make so much clearer decisions.

Jonathan Hawkins: Have you always been a data person or is this something that you developed over time?

Elise Buie: Yeah, it’s something I developed. I mean, I’ve always liked numbers. Like I’ve always liked math, you know, like as a younger person, I liked math. I actually thought I was gonna be a biomedical engineer. But I got to like that fourth level of calculus and I was like, woo hoo. Can’t do that anymore. So, I had to.

Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: calculus. Yeah.

Elise Buie: So I changed that. So, but I, I realized as I was coming along in this journey, I mean, I read Brooke Lively’s book From Panic to Profit, and I think that book spoke to me. And then also Greg Crabtree’s book, I think it’s called Like Small Numbers, big Profits or Big Profits, small Numbers, I can’t remember.

It’s an orange book. But I mean, he even has a second [00:55:00] edition. That book spoke to me as well. And I think once I understood that, ’cause I used to be like, stressed about money, you know, and really like, oh my gosh, am I gonna pay payroll? I mean, now we save money, like, ’cause we close our office three weeks during the year, two at the holidays, and one at July 4th.

So I have to like, save money every pay period to pay those payrolls, you know, when no revenue is coming in. I’m so slow on the uptake. I didn’t do that for the longest time, and it was such a struggle. And now I’m like, you know, got a whole system. I know exactly what I save every week. I, I know what gets in those savings.

And we save for operational expenses, you know, anything big and like, we’ve just gotten it down to this very scientific, I mean, it’s kind of boring you know, but it’s, but it works. And and it allows me to get the benefit out of the firm for all the effort and [00:56:00] risk and, you know, time in. And it allows me to treat my people well because I’m not, you know, I’m not flying by the seat of my pants.

Like I know what’s happening and I build it in our forecast.

Jonathan Hawkins: Boring and financially secure is a lot better than excited and barely making ends meet. So,

Elise Buie: It is to me for sure at this stage of the, of the game. Maybe when I was 25, I don’t know, maybe I would go for the more excitement, but in the 55 ish range, I’m like, I’ll take boring and financially secure all day long.

Jonathan Hawkins: So, so back to the coaching thing. So do you have a limit on how many folks you work with at a time? I

Elise Buie: I do.

Jonathan Hawkins: does that work? So if somebody’s out there listening and they say, Hey, I like what Elisa’s saying, I, I’m hiring her today. I mean, what, what’s the process there?

Elise Buie: Yeah. Well, they’ll reach out and I would do a Zoom to meet with them, to kind of see if it would be a good fit, really dig [00:57:00] into some of their situation and and then if I have an opening at the time, you know, I would send them out a fee agreement. We don’t have any type of long-term contract. ’cause like I said, I very much only wanna work with people that it’s a mutual thing that we’re both, you know.

I feel like I can help them and they’re getting something of value from it. So but you know, we have like a fee agreement just setting up, you know, some basic things and then we can move forward. I mean, right now I don’t have any openings like today. I mean, I’ve been working with some people pretty consistently since I started.

But then I’ve had a couple come and go, you know, so that I’ve opened up two spaces or three spaces. But yeah, and I definitely limit it because I do offer. Unlimited, like email, text, phone, kind of communication. So if people are having things happening, I want them to feel like they can reach out to me right away in the moment.

Because one, I feel like [00:58:00] we can triage it really quickly. And so I found, at least when I bad things were happening or I was stressed out about something, if I had had somebody that I could call and be like, can I have 15 minutes of your time right now? And we could talk through this, that would’ve been game changing, you know, to help me.

And so that is something that I very much want to keep is that tight one-on-one thing where people will, you know, they’ll be like, I’m interviewing the attorney now. Like, you know, they’ve said they want this, you know, and I’ll be like, well, I’ll run some quick numbers for you while you’re in your interview, you know, and I’m able to run an ROI on that employee that maybe what they’ve asked for and you know, give them some guidance on that.

And so it’s. I love that part of it because anything I can do to bring people down from the ceiling where they are not as stressed, like that really means something to me because I do feel like this is [00:59:00] so, it just can be so stressful.

Jonathan Hawkins: So you’ve been, you’ve been running your firm for a while. You’ve been coaching other lawyers and helping them run their firms. Are there any top lessons to other law firm owners out there perhaps, that you think

Elise Buie: Absolutely.

Jonathan Hawkins: focus on?

Elise Buie: One, if you have employees, you need EPLI insurance. Every single person with an employee. I didn’t know about that insurance for a very long time despite having an employment attorney. But so get EPLI insurance and two, get your finances in order. Like if you are not using. A solid bookkeeper who is one, ensuring that your trust account is being reconciled three ways every day, every week, every month that you are, you know, you’re not getting your books like by the fifth or sixth of every month [01:00:00] so that you know exactly what is happening in your books.

Because until you have your books where you understand them, I mean, you’re literally flying your plane blind. I mean, forget flying it while you’re building it, which we all joke about. I mean, you have a blindfold on while you’re building it. And it is, it is so critical to understanding what you’re doing.

And I mean, you will find so many leaky buckets in your firm if you deeply understand your p and l.

Jonathan Hawkins: Such great advice. So we’ve been going at it for a while. I want to ask, ask all my guests this. You’ve got your coaching business, you’ve got your law firm. You got your personal stuff as you look forward for the next 10, 15, 20 years, what’s the vision? What’s next?

Elise Buie: Well, I don’t know that I can share that. It’s a [01:01:00] secret. I might have to kill you if I tell you we’re, we’re literally in the infancy stage of something really big and exciting and so, I really can’t share it like it is. You know, right now I’m working with, I have a new strategic growth officer and it’s funny, she, when we were interviewing and doing the work together, ’cause I have a COO who kind of keeps the trains on time and this new chief strategic growth officer, she lays new tracks and so it’s kind of interesting to work with the two of them and you know, see how we can always improve our current train system. But then how can we, you know, go to new places

Jonathan Hawkins: I love the mystery. You got me. You got me. So we’re gonna have to get you back on once, once it’s happened, you’re gonna have to, then you can tell

Elise Buie: A absolutely.

Jonathan Hawkins: good. Alright. Well Elise, I appreciate you coming [01:02:00] on. This has been awesome, fun, lot of, lot of gold that you’ve been dropping. For anybody out there that wants to get, get in touch with you what’s the best way?

Elise Buie: Probably just reach out to my email and I’m sure we can put that in the podcast notes, but it’s a EliseB@elisebuiefamilylaw.com and I would be happy to talk to anybody. I’m really kind of an open book, so sometimes people reach out and they just want to see like, what report do you have, what do you do?

How do you measure this? How do you do this? I’m happy to share those things.

Jonathan Hawkins: Awesome. Well, again, thank you for coming on. It’s been awesome.

Elise Buie: Yeah, thank you and I hope you have a great rest of your day.

Jonathan Hawkins: You too.

OutroUpdatedWebsite-1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the founding partner podcast. Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to stay up to date on the latest episodes. You can also connect with Jonathan on LinkedIn and check out the show notes. With links to resources mentioned throughout our discussion by visiting [01:03:00] www.lawfirmgc.com. We’ll see you next time for more origin stories and insights from successful law firm founders.