Jonathan Hawkins: [00:00:00] The big firm lawyers that are still playing music really amaze me ’cause I mean, just the time and commitment there, just on, on the work side. So here, here’s a question for you. So, you know a lot of lawyers out there, and I see this a lot in succession planning context or transitioning down to the next generation. You know, there’s a lot of lawyers that their identity is so caught up in being a lawyer that you know, they’re gonna die at their desk. They can never let it go. They got nothing else they can do.

And you spent so much time doing it, all this, all the reasons. And so, you know, maybe we all, all lawyers have that a little bit, but you, I’m curious if somebody asks you what do you do or what are you, do you identify, are you a musician or are you an attorney? How do you introduce yourself? How do you answer that question?

Hannibal Heredia: Oh, that’s a great question. You know, I’m gonna go sideways on you as like a terrible witness on the stand. I mean, I guess I always identified myself more first as husband, father and friend. Those are the [00:01:00] three things I think I take very serious and have always tried to excel at.

And I think, again, taking, you know, the reason we’re on this podcast going back to me and Jon founding this firm, we had growing pains, but it’s the friendship that’s kept that alive and always being able to relate to each other as we’ve grown up older together and see where we are. And it and being, you know, honest with one another, being trustworthy with one another.

Welcome to the Founding Partner Podcast. Join your host, Jonathan Hawkins, as we explore the fascinating stories of successful law firm founders. We’ll uncover their beginnings, triumph over challenges, and practice growth. Whether you aspire to launch your own firm, have an entrepreneurial spirit, or are just curious about the legal business, you’re in the right place.

Let’s dive in.

Jonathan Hawkins: Welcome to Founding Partner podcast. I’m your host, Jonathan Hawkins. This is a podcast where I get to interview law firm founders and owners and [00:02:00] learn from their journeys. And hopefully I can emulate and take some of their learnings and apply to my firm and you as listeners. Hopefully you can do the same. So today’s guest longtime friend of mine we’ve met, I don’t know, a number of years ago. And I knew him long before that because he’s got a memorable name and we’ll talk about that too. But we’ve got Hannibal Heredia here from Atlanta. He’s family law attorney here in Atlanta. Welcome to the show, Hannibal.

Why don’t you give us a brief overview of what you do and maybe a little bit about your firm.

Hannibal Heredia: Sure, thanks for having me. Of course. First off so I’ve been practicing family law for 32 years. I’m a partner at Hedgepeth Heredia. The other name partner Jon Hedgepeth, and I started his firm in 2006. All we do is family law. We’ve occasionally bumped into things, but generally was family law, including adoptions.

Some circuity work, although that’s kind of died out over the years. I think other firms do a better job than me. Probably not. You know, prenups, postnup, other things that kind of [00:03:00] float around there. Located in the Cumberland area, but we serve Metro Atlanta predominantly. That’s my joke stories, family law 24/7.

Jonathan Hawkins: How many attorneys do you guys have now?

Hannibal Heredia: We’re at six attorneys. We’ve been as big as eight. I think we’re probably like at a really good size as, you know, as Jon and I keep getting older in age as you know, we’re not, we don’t, I don’t think we tend to practice till we’re in the grave until they’re put a coffin door on top of us. But six is good.

We have four staff and our lovely long-term legal interns in law school that’s putting up with us and hopefully, you know, will join the career when she graduates.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, I found with family law firms there are a couple exception I know a few that are really big, like, you know, verge on the verge of national, but otherwise they’re they mostly stay fairly small. There’s probably lots of reasons for that. But, you know, six is, is about, you know, three to eight.

You know, once you get above eight, you know, you start to, it, it becomes a little more rare. I mean, what’s been your [00:04:00] experience in

Hannibal Heredia: I, I think, you know, it’s funny, I think you nailed on the head. I think you know, it’s, it’s a, we’ll probably talk about it at some point. It’s about managing, you know, folks. I mean, at some point, you know, you have to have a dedicated manager and one of the large big family law firms. I think they do a terrific job of having dedicated managers, dedicated training dedicated way of handling things.

I give kudos to those guys. I’ve watched them build that firm up from scrap from a small firm to a very large firm. I think that’s probably predominantly, I like think a lot of family lawyers tend to be like doctors. We just wanna fix stuff. And so finding people who are willing to manage and probably goes in all legal, various legal specialties.

But I would assume knowing all the other managing partners in our firms, a lot of us go into it begrudgingly. And so you start getting more people in there, I’m sure it’s a lot more difficult to manage. But again, sometimes if the work’s there you gotta service it. And so some of these firms have no choice, I think, but to get bigger, I think our decision all along [00:05:00] was get the, try to get the good work, don’t get the lot of work, and then you don’t have to get into that, that, that issue.

Unfortunately more people, more problems often. But

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. It’s funny you mentioned the managing partner thing, so whenever you see somebody name managing partner, everybody’s, oh, congrats. Oh, congrats. You know, really, it’s sort of like, no, I’m sorry, sorry, sorry. You have to do that.

Hannibal Heredia: I, I got the title in my firm that I was at before here, up in Cartersville. I lived and worked in Cartersville four and a half years I think. And I got bestowed that. And I learned a lot. And, And Jon Hedgepeth be the voice, say like, he came with all this knowledge and I will, I learned a lot doing that.

But when I left that and, and the guy who took over would call, would reach out to me and he’d be like. Man, I didn’t realize like ordering the toilet tissue was gonna be part of my duties when they gave me this title. Yes, it’s everything. You know, we’ve had people come through and they’re like, I don’t ever want that job.

You know? The other partner in the firm, Paul Simon, was like, Hannibal, if I told you I don’t want your

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. It’s so funny, the young [00:06:00] lawyer, congrats your managing partner.

Hannibal Heredia: you know, and I, and I, when I moved to Atlanta, I learned like in these large law firms, I mean, that’s your job, right? You’re not practicing law. You’re not marketing anymore. You’re managing that firm. And again, going to these small firm, like I still, I still market, I still litigate. And so you’re squeezing all the pieces in, right?

But I enjoy, I do enjoy it. I’ll say that. I think to me, people ask me about it, like, I think I would be bored if I just litigated all the time. I think I would be bored if I just managed all the time. So I think it’s a, it keeps me entertained.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, you get to wear a lot of hats. We’ll get into that. But let’s go back, man. Let’s go all the way back. So, you know, the, the most foundational question, you know, did you always know you’re gonna be a lawyer or is this sort of, you know, this is a

Hannibal Heredia: Uh, Yeah,

Jonathan Hawkins: people answer a lot of different ways.

Hannibal Heredia: I was supposed to be a doctor and there are times I’m like, yeah, should have stuck with that. So notoriously the joke is, I don’t know if it’s in all fields, but always is like in family law, it’s like lawyers don’t like math. I like math. I can do math. I like science. [00:07:00] I really love that area. I went to college to go to med school and just like second semester of organic chemistry, I was like, man, this is a really long road before I get to the end result, you know?

And mom had always said, you argue all the time, you always defend your brother. You should be a lawyer. And I was like, oh, well I’ll just go be a lawyer. Like I think a lot of people sometimes at some point do and you learn you can major in anything and go to law school and, you know, I don’t know if I’d be an md.

I’ve always thought maybe I’d go into research or something, which seems weird. But I think also, I think about all the adventures I’ve had being a lawyer, and I might have missed on a, a lot of those. But no, it wasn’t the, my original intent, and I can tell you for sure when I was in law school. So, the school I went to recommended we take family law.

I said, I’m not taking family. I’ll never do that. I will never do that in a million years. Practice family law, and here I am.

Jonathan Hawkins: It’s funny the roads that we take and where they lead us. You know, I tell this story a lot. I went to law, I went to law school thinking I want to [00:08:00] be a plaintiff’s personal injury lawyer. Never done it once. Oh, you know, never done it, so it, yeah. But I, I was convinced that’s what I was gonna do. So,

Hannibal Heredia: Yeah, I, I, I went to go, I didn’t know what I was gonna do. I literally was like, I’m just gonna get my degree and figure it out. I remember a girl I dated back in college had me meet with some Alston and bird lawyers, I think that did M&A. I probably listened to ’em and talked to him. Probably just kind of went over my head.

I was thinking, you know, how’d I get back to the apartment and drink a beer? ’cause this was college. And that’s kind of where my mindset was, you know? So I just, I really had no idea when I decided to go to law school what I was gonna do. I thought being into music, I was gonna do entertainment law, but man, I just quickly learned, like the first semester out there, especially, I went to school in Los Angeles, which was why I went there to do entertainment law. I was like, that is not what I want to do.

Jonathan Hawkins: so was that sort of like, like a Jerry McGuire industry where you’re like, cutthroat? Or is it just

Hannibal Heredia: You know, and I’ve, [00:09:00] I’ve said this to my entertainment lawyer friends, and they totally go, no, you’re absolutely correct. It’s like, it’s a lot of babysitting. Of people, you know, you’re, that’s what you do a lot of. And being in LA you really saw what you needed to do to get a job to you kinda a Jerry McGuire thing where you had to stay in it.

And I was like, I don’t think I’d sign up for that. You know, it’s so funny, you know, now that I market. But I mean, at the time I was like, sales, this is the last thing I want to do. But at some level to get clients and keep clients, you’re doing sales. I learned quickly that’s what it was about. I mean, yeah, I took the copyright classes and I think a lot of it was just for my own edification, but I was like, that’s not what I wanted to go to law school for.

You know, I can, there was do the intellectual side of it, I’m like, this is, you know, this part, not the dominant intellectual complain of practicing entertainment law, but a lot of it is. And at the time I was like, why am I quitting? Why would I quit playing music? You know? I mean, I could go back and play music and, but being a child of immigrants, it was like, you go to college, you get your job, you know?

And [00:10:00] so I was like, well, I gotta get this job, you know? And so I was like, well, you know, I can do the music. I don’t have to practice entertainment law. We’ll see where, what job I get when I get out of law school. And again here I’m the,

Jonathan Hawkins: touched on a lot of things I want to hit on, but before, before we move on from the entertainment I’m, I’m sort of curious I’ve never really thought about entertainment law as babysitter, so, you know, I imagine when you’re young, you know, that probably means staying out till two, 3:00 AM every night.

And maybe when you’re young with no family, that’d be pretty fun. But I would think if once you’re like 50, like that would be pretty old man.

I don’t know if

Hannibal Heredia: you’re, yeah, hopefully you’re just negotiating contracts at that point on the phone and type. No, I mean, my personal entertainment lawyer who I’m still very good friends with and may see tomorrow night I mean, he’s got stories for sure. He’s got much better stories than you and I probably combine, you know, staying up late, staying up in certain places.

But it’s a lot of calls and, you know, because whatever makes the world go around, gives you certain talents. And a [00:11:00] lot of people who are really good musicians, that’s what they’re really good at and everything else they’re not so good at. And so the entertainment lawyer becomes kind of the pipeline to the rest of the world or the manager.

And sometimes, you know, the, the two roles kind of mixed together. I remember my only chairman lawyer was pals a lot of the local managers in town that had certain artists. It’s like a combined effort to kind of get these people, because the ones who make it, I learned this, you know, in after getting in my thirties, the ones who make it, oh, go watch a Tom Petty documentary, that one that Bogdanovich did.

I mean, you eat, breathe poop. That music, you don’t get to dabble in law. You don’t get to dabble in paying your rent. You don’t have to get dabble in your girlfriends. You do that. And so you need someone to babysit you if your career is advancing because telling them contract. Yeah, so that’s the whole basic, I spoke to a really infamous entertainment lawyer one time, just [00:12:00] in the last couple years.

He runs a big charity here in town. I think everybody knows. And he even, we agreed that when he did this work, that’s the majority of his job was

Jonathan Hawkins: That’s, so, I heard a, a podcast, I don’t know, about a month ago, about Jimmy Iovine phenomenal podcast. I’ll send it to you.

Hannibal Heredia: phenomenal guy.

Jonathan Hawkins: it’s a called Founder’s podcast, but just really cool. And then, and then that led me down and then I found another one where I guess Rick Rubin interviewed him. And just to hear the two of them talk.

It was really just the stories, like you said, and just the crazy stuff, man. Just crazy.

Hannibal Heredia: It’s great. And I mean, again even, even in like a band like the Heartbreakers, you got different personalities and you’re dealing with all that. I mean, it’s, it’s what we do, right? It’s people. It’s people.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, so, so you mentioned a minute ago being the son of, of immigrants. I wanna, I wanna touch on that because, you know, that probably you know, other children, immigrants that I’d, I’ve known and [00:13:00] just meeting, it’s just, it really shapes, you know, the second generation or the first generation that grow up here. And then the parents are like, you gotta go med school or whatever. You gotta be a professional. What was that like growing up? The family dynamic but then also being here? I mean, I don’t know if you spoke the language or if you were born here or what, but what was that like growing up?

Hannibal Heredia: So I, I wa I was born here. My brother and I were born here. We always, I say I’m from Montgomery, Alabama ’cause I moved there as a toddler. As a toddler basically. And I don’t remember growing up north. And of course, you know, where you grew up really shapes you. And I con, I consider myself a southerner.

They were from, both of my parents were from Peru. You know, and there’s, you know, there’s in these third world countries, I mean, they’re middle. If there is a middle class there, it isn’t by definition like our middle class. So I would say, you know, parents grew up in some kind of, you know, working, you know, poor working middle class type definition.

My dad was a me medical doctor, cardiologist. So I didn’t grow up. I grew up with privileges [00:14:00] given to me, but then it was just a double-edged sword because it’s like, look, we made it, we gave you these things. You will con, you know, you will do this. So my mom, you know, from when I was like four or five, was like doctor, lawyer, engineer.

And I remember being five years old, thinking engineer, like the guy who drives the train. You know, my mom would try to explain to me what an engineer was. And when I became an adult, I realized my, her dad had been a civil engineer basically. So again, they weren’t probably poor, but they were definitely, you know, not the wealthy.

And so, you know, they made it, they got out, my dad got, went to med school. He came here to do his residency up north. And then the infamous story was when I was a toddler, my mom said, I can’t stand this cold anymore. We either moved somewhere warmer, we go back to Peru. So we moved to Montgomery, Alabama.

What was interesting about growing up in Montgomery, Alabama in the 1970s, early eighties, was there were no other Hispanics in Montgomery, Alabama at the time. Now it’s a melting pot, you know, so compared to back then and we went to a private school and we were the only Hispanic kids there. And, [00:15:00] but you know, I, I, you know, there’s a, like, there’s the audio tape from when I’m like a kid and I have like an accent.

It’s funny. You know, because I grew up here. But I guess it was just living at home like that. But yeah, it was different. You know, not a lot of people had, you know, new Hispanics, you know, but people always thought we were from, you know, Mexico, Puerto Rico, which is very, you know, natural back then, especially, But it was, it was ingrained in our heads to do this. I remember my, my, my brother went to Auburn as well, and he switched from architecture to art, and he’s a fabulous artist, an amazing drummer. And my mom had a heart attack, of course. I was like, he’s still in college. You know, he’ll do something.

You know, it’s like, it’s not an architect, you know? So, you know, I followed their, you know, path to where I am, you know? But and it’s, it is true. It’s a common story for first generations. You know, you know, whether your parents are successful or not. It’s just, we got here, you know, you gotta carry the torch.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, I’ve always, you know, because of this country you know, there’s so many Im immigrants that have come to this country and I mean, think about leaving where [00:16:00] you grew up, going to a place, strange place, not knowing the language, just sort of the self-selection of the people that actually do that.

And the genes that they pass on to. Then I mean, some of it’s cultural, but some of ’em are genetic. I mean, it’s like, you know, you’ve got all these really you know, pioneers, really and it’s in the genes of all of us.

Hannibal Heredia: Yeah, absolutely. Like, and that’s the thing I think people have to remember and I think it’s lost in after, you know, generations of being here. Like there’s somebody who came over here, right? And there’s someone who had the gumption and somebody who maybe lost a spouse on the boat that came over and all these stories, but even the modern.

Folks that come over and we, you know, we will represent these folks. And it’s like they’re staking out the ground. I remember my brother saying it to me about 10, 15 years ago. Like, you gotta give ’em credit. Like, my mom spoke English. ’cause they teach ’em English and the whole, you know, any, probably the whole world.

It was like, I remember growing up everyone spoke English no matter where you got dropped off, but, you know, she didn’t, it wasn’t, you know, conversational in it. She learned to drive here, you know, on our streets and things like [00:17:00] that. She had a degree in accounting. So she was a smart woman, but, you know, she had, she couldn’t just come here and land a job, you know, at Deloitte.

So, it is, it’s a big thing. It has to be scary, you know? And then until you, again, until you become an adult, you don’t even think about it. You’re just like, whatever, mom,

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah,

Hannibal Heredia: Josh, mom, it’s whatever. You know. So it is that you think about what it means to do all that. And then again explains why the, the push of like, you got to keep on you.

We want you to succeed as well. But it’s so funny, I hear that from all immigrants, from all different parts of the world. It’s like, you will be a professional.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. So do you speak Spanish? Did you,

Hannibal Heredia: I do, I do speak Spanish. I do speak Spanish. It’s I’m not great at I’m not very fast at writing or reading. And I will cheat with Google Translate these days because it’s easier.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, it’s interesting, like, you know, there’s different, you know, the older generation immigrants, they’re like, we’re gonna assimilate. We’re not speaking, you know, they do not let their kids speak their language. Where [00:18:00] newer, it seems like, yeah, they want to have dual you know, language kids. You know, like my granddad, his parents came over from France,

Hannibal Heredia: Oh, cool.

Jonathan Hawkins: and he said growing up his parents would not teach him French.

You know, they’re like, you’re gonna learn English, but he figured it out anyway. He said they’d be having these conversations in French thinking he didn’t understand it, but he knew. But yeah he always regretted that. He, always talked about, I wish they would’ve, you

Hannibal Heredia: absolutely. My, my two partners in Cartersville they’re getting more shout outs than I thought they would today. Grew up Italian family. Cuban family. No, all English. You will, we, you know, we will, we will assimilate. You will not be oddballs. My mom is the one who really pushed it on us. My dad would speak to us in English at home.

It was weird, you know, and then we, then he would speak to mom in Spanish. You know, and it was just funny. So it was, and I think he, I always felt like we have no proof. He’s passed away a long time ago, but we always felt like he was just wanting to keep practicing his English, is what we always thought.

But, But [00:19:00] we, my mom would speak to us and then we would talk to my mom in English. It was, so, there’s a lot of English in my household. It was funny and I think about it, but she taught it to us, you know, and I, and we would go to Peru once a year to visit. And so it was always, you know, in there. So, and then I still speak to my mom most, you know, half Spanish, half English

Jonathan Hawkins: so, so I wanna circle back on your name. So I think it’s a great name, man. I think it’s awesome. I think it’s badass, really. And you know, years before we met, I knew who you were largely because of your name. I mean, it’s like, you don’t forget it. So, I’m curious, you know, probably growing. In Montgomery, Alabama.

You probably hated it, but I don’t know. Has that changed? Do you love it now? I mean, I think from a marketing standpoint should be incredible, so.

Hannibal Heredia: So it is a more common name in Europe and then Spanish. Originated countries, the name Hannibal, or a Nial, which is what it translate to in Spanish. So if you meet a Spaniard or a Latin American it, it doesn’t phase them. Like, if I go somewhere now, it’s still like, really? Is this your name?

Or, you know, Starbucks. They’re like, oh, I know [00:20:00] you’ve heard this one before Dr. Lecter. You know? Yeah. But if you do it, if you do it in Latin American country, like I’ve had, you know, had Coca-Cola executives, they just, it doesn’t phase ’em because it’s a name. It’s not like Jonathan, but it’s, you know, it’s a name that you hear, you know.

My dad was a, a Hannibal. My granddad was Hannibal. I’ve had cousins that are Hannibal, unfortunately, which made it worse for me growing up is my nickname in the House was Hani. So you can imagine going to a southern school with the name Hani Heredia, which sounds a lot like honey, that it was just, it was, you know, it was just terrible for the first, you know, 18 years of my life, you know, people trying to pronounce it, people trying to understand it.

Some, you know, I worked one time with a guy who was like, I’m not calling you Hani. Like, do you have, I’m gonna call you Hannibal. Which is cool because I was like it was law school when I could, and I moved outta Alabama that I could finally say like, my name is Hannibal, you know? And so if I ever get an email or a call that says Hani, I’m like, okay, it’s Alabama, you know, it’s someone from Alabama.

But starting law school since that was like 1990, I’ve always [00:21:00] been Hannibal and yeah, I like the name as a strong name. Little did I know I was gonna be a family lawyer. No. You know, and so I, I have clients and colleagues that will make comment about it. And then a story I remember was. There was a guy that dabbled in family law for a while.

I think he’s a criminal lawyer now, but it’s been a long time since I’ve seen or heard of him. But his name was Hercules. And

Jonathan Hawkins: that’s strong.

Hannibal Heredia: he came to Cartersville, he got joined, got was an associate firm. And I was thinking I was still an associate and we had a case against each other and everybody in Cartersville was like, this is great.

Hannibal versus Hercules. This is awesome. Oh, sorry. Spartacus. Spartacus Spartacus, Spartacus, Spartacus, Spartacus. Spartacus was his name. Spartacus

Jonathan Hawkins: a, That’s a great name too. Yeah.

Hannibal Heredia: great name. He went to criminal law. He was like, I’m out. I’m not doing this stuff anymore. It was Hannibal versus Spartacus. It was hilarious.

Hercules would great though, but it was great. So, you know, and I, I, in my brain now, I’m like, I’m just H Animal now, like, you know, although I still, you know, still get, you know, 35 years later someone asked me [00:22:00] about Dr. Lecter or Don’t Eat

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, well, I, you know, I like, again, from a marketing business stand standpoint, I think, you know, it’s great. I mean, it really is. They probably think you made it up,

Hannibal Heredia: See, people do think I made it up, especially at, at Starbucks, but he made it, you know, it’s easier to remember odd names. Right. And again, I, if you, hopefully I have the personality to stick behind it, hopefully, knock on wood. But I do appreciate and it happens mostly with black folks that they know The Hannibal, the Carthaginian in general.

And they’ll go there and they’re like, Hey, you like the Hygenic in general? I’m like yes. You know, occasionally you get a Hannibal, Missouri, Mark Twain, but it’s mostly, you know, you’ll get and more and more you’re getting people like, wow, they taught you that in history. And you listen, that’s awesome.

You know? But still, there’s probably 33% that’s still going to fava beans and ke.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Yeah. Well, let’s, let’s talk about the founding of your firm. So, you know, originally you thought maybe entertainment. You said family law was the last thing in the world. You thought of somehow you ended up in family [00:23:00] law. And then at some point around 2006 or so you, you decided to, to found a firm.

So maybe, you know, what was it that drove you to start your own firm? And maybe take me through, I think you founded it with your partner you know, what’s the process? How did you guys come to that decision?

Hannibal Heredia: When I think back on it. And my, I hope all my family, all competitors are listening to us. But I go back, man. we were, There was some keystone cop, maybe it’s like this for all firms, but there were definitely some keystone cop moments of us creating this firm. Jon is the, my oldest friend in Atlanta that I didn’t already know when I moved here after law school in 1993.

And he always practiced family law. He was a partner in his own small firm in the West End, before the West End became hip. And you know, we would, we knew each other through music and going to concerts and stuff. And we’d been friends and we were just like kids in our twenties. We were like, when day we’re gonna have a firm, when day we’re gonna have a firm.

And then he left that small firm and got [00:24:00] into some of the big family law firms here in town and then an becoming partner at one of them. And about 2005, the year before we it’s found at our firm. I realized that I probably was going to end up at some point hitting a ceiling at, in Cartersville.

The cases were kind of always the same. There was probably some limitation on income. I thought that as much as I loved my partners, and I still consider them like brothers, we, they, we had kind of different ideas and some of them were older than the younger partners. And so that always creates a dynamic which exists in our current firm.

So I saw John.

Jonathan Hawkins: quick, Real quick. So for those who aren’t familiar with Carterville, maybe you know how big is it sort of where, you know, what, how would you describe Carterville?

Hannibal Heredia: on. Everyone should know Cartersville. So Carterville is, Cartersville is one of those little towns that has not still been sucked into Metro Atlanta, like it still is out there. Like you, if you go up 75 toward Chattanooga. You get past Acworth, which is completely like now [00:25:00] has shops and breweries and stuff.

You go about 30 more miles and you are in Cartersville. It is still a small town. It is cute as can be. Great people, great judges. I loved when I get a chance to go back up there, and I was a legal service attorney and Tony Perada, who was the managing partner and still founding partner of that firm, recruited me out there because I spoke Spanish, recruited me out there as a good Hispanic population up there, saw that I could provide value to their firm.

Knew because of altruistic side being Georgia legal service. I wanna help people. He knew my number and I we moved and lived out there with my, my, my ex-wife. And it is, I don’t know, the population’s grown a little bit bigger. There’s more stuff going on. But I’ll tell you, when I was there, there was neither a Starbucks nor mos.

So it’s how small it was. And they put a Taco Mac up there and it did not survive back in the early two thousands. How do you lose a tacom?

Jonathan Hawkins: Wow. Yeah.

Hannibal Heredia: The rumor was that the police wanted to make money so they would just stay out there and catch people, you know, [00:26:00] driving drunk and then everybody was like, ah, this is terrible.

We’re not gonna go Taco Mac. I think that was just a legend. But but things have changed. I mean, everything’s growing, but it’s not metro Atlanta ish. It’s not. It’s still got that. It’s vibe. And Jon and I, Hedgepeth, like I said, had been friends and I knew I needed to come back and I was just going to interview.

I thought Jon can help me interview with some of the family law firms. ’cause he knows all these folks. And Jon was like, you know, I might finally be thinking about this move. And so we started working on it. And because I had managed the other firm, you know, it was, it was easy to say, we need a copier, we need a malpractice insurance.

You know, you can do the checklist, but it’s, until you get into it, you realize all the human components of it and the things we’ve learned and we’ve had our growing pains. But the friendship helped a lot. But I remember launching, ’cause we, you know, I, I had already given my notice and Jon given us notice we had launched without a website.

Big. No-no. Everybody out there. I mean, even in 2006, we didn’t have, you know, we didn’t have a website finished, you know. [00:27:00] Just things that we just went for and had to just kind of put together as we, we moved on. I, you know, I don’t think I really knew how I was gonna manage some of the fiscal elements without having a dedicated bookkeeper, which we had in the other place.

And I, my love of math also gave me that hat because I was the bookkeeper for a long time. Please don’t audit us, IRS. And so there was a lot of things we just didn’t do. And again, because you’re just always in crisis mode, being a family lawyer, especially, some of it just got put to the left and right and we were given advice from several people, you should do it this way, get a line of credit, put a mortgage on your home. And, you know, we always figured out a way to not to try to figure out a way to make it less complicated than it had to be. Even though we were given several pieces of advice from other people how you could start it.

And I, you know, in family law, I mean, a lot of people go out on their own now, which is, you know, I think people learn I can do this. And, you know, they’re not scared. But I know I think of my generation, it was like, oh, I just wanna be an associate and slowly [00:28:00] work up the ladder. But one of the things I remember was just, if I’m gonna make my own, if I’m gonna if I’m gonna complain about mistakes being made at the partnership level, then let ’em be my own mistakes.

And that was really one of the huge impetuses for me to just go after. ’cause I love that that paycheck just, there’s your salary, here you go. Just do your work. You know, we, we think you’re doing a good job. Here’s your bonus. But I realized, you know, if I’m gonna complain all the time about the people were making decisions, then let me be the decision maker.

And that was stuck in my mind.

Jonathan Hawkins: That’s right. O owner gets paid last every time. You know, I mentioned before we came on the air, and I saw your partner, Jon, I guess last week at Atlanta, United Game. And I, I hadn’t spent too much time with him before, so I didn’t realize how much into music he was. So we’d spent a lot of time talking about that and all the shows going to and all that.

So it makes sense that you guys would be friends. And so of course I have, you know, there are a lot of people out there that say, Hey, we’re really good friends, let’s be partners. And [00:29:00] a lot of times that’s a recipe for disaster. So, you guys have made it work really well. I mean, you guys have been around, you know, for 20 years, so, you know, what, what is the magic?

What, how have you guys made it work as partners?

Hannibal Heredia: The what I would tell people and I’ve, we’ve, Jon and I have been very honored and, that, that, you know, and been, been very just, wow. You know, like, wow. The people have come to us and especially in the two thousands to say, Hey, I’m thinking about leaving my firm. What’s it like, Hey, I’m thinking about partnering with this person.

What’s it like? What can you give us advice? You know? And I think they knew we would be sworn to secrecy and we’d have these lunches and, and it was always very flattering. That’s the word I was looking for. And but one thing I think I can say now, which I may, and I said in the two thousands, I’ve seen a couple of the partnerships that were forming that came to meet us and they, they split up, is that you really don’t know your partner.

It’s just like when you get married until you start living with them, you know. Jon and I had been friends since [00:30:00] 1993, so that’s 13 years before we started this firm. And you know, we kind of lost contact when we started having kids. I moved to Cartersville, but you know, we had spent some time together, you know, we’d gone to shows together, he come see my shows, you know, we, we have this and that part of him still exists, like you saw the other day a hundred percent.

But when you’re in there longer on a daily basis than you are with your own spouse, you know, you see each other’s, you know, weaknesses and habits and things that you don’t know and you think, you know, because you’re talking to about music or your family. And it can be eyeopening. And I think that’s what happens with some folks, especially if you’re really small and it’s just like one or two of you.

And like we were at the beginning, I think what we were able to do and a and a wise lawyer gave me this not bit of wisdom, who’s a lawyer in Carterville. Shout out to Chief Judge of the juvenile court, Neal Brunt. But he said, you gotta find what each of you’re bringing to the table.

You have to be able to find what everybody’s [00:31:00] bringing that’s different to the table. ’cause if you’re bringing the same thing, at some point you will, your differences will stretch it out because you’re just bringing the same thing to the table. What is it that Jon brings to this table that you don’t bring?

What is it that you think? And Jon and I, when we’re having our growing pains, we’re able to wrap our heads around those ideas. And I think till the day we know what the other one brings to the table to make this partnership work. And we’ve united when we’ve had to unite, we’ve disagreed when we’ve had to disagree and try to find a way to get around it.

But the basic idea of like, you know, Jon will tell you, he would sit here and he’d pop in the screen around now and say what we said 25 minutes ago, I do not wanna do what he does. I don’t want to deal with that. He’ll tell this. There’s another joke he always tells about Hannibal could be robbing me blind right now, but I trust him 115000%, but he could take then rob me blind.

And so we’ve created this level of trust, you know, and Jon allowed us at the beginning to [00:32:00] not have to go get a mortgage on our houses because he was from Atlanta. He’s a good marketer. He knew folks, he could bring the cases in. And he has consistently always done that. And he’s always been consistent to keep that firm where it’s been through all the different changes and all the different partners we’ve had come, we’ve had such great people be partners with us over the years.

And you acknowledge that about another, and so, you know, just like a marriage, eh, that cork’s Okay. That, I mean, I look Jon’s gotta put up with some of my garbage, so believe me. But you don’t know that it’s like a marriage. You don’t know that until you’re spending every day sitting at, you know, desks maybe, you know, even in the same room because you could only afford one office, you know?

And there are growing pains and sometimes they’re hard to go over and hopefully you have the same fiscal ideas. I mean, ’cause you know, the best bands have broken up over money, just like the best marriages have broken up over money. So hopefully you have the same fiscal plans. And I will say that’s very important for people to also always hope that you have that same goal as well.

Jonathan Hawkins: So we’re gonna talk about music [00:33:00] here in a minute, but you know, may maybe, you know, the parallels may be perfect. I don’t know. Maybe not. So, you know, you’ve been in a bunch of bands you do a lot of divorce work, you’ve been in a partnership. You know, are there things you learn in one that you apply to the other?

Hannibal Heredia: A hundred percent. So I think it was like, God, at least a decade in, and we had multiple, we had more than me and Jon. We had multiple partners. And we were at a conference and we were told that not everybody divides the pie equally. Like what? And I said, but listen, you two and REM both divide the pie equally.

Why do you think they lasted so long? It’s always, usually when someone’s getting more of the money or whatever, or more of the attention starts causing, you know, riff. I mean, half the people in the world can’t tell you. Larry Mullen Jr’s the drummer of of U2, but Larry Mullen Jr’s making as much money technically on paper as Bono and the edge.

And that’s how John and I felt about it. Like we really would say that out loud. We were [00:34:00] just like, that’s how the best people get together. And also, I said, you have to have the same fiscal idea too. Like, can you have the same fiscal thoughts? So that. You know, like the best marriages, the best businesses, the best bands break up sometimes over that.

So, you know, have we adjusted our model with time with, again, when you start bringing youth in, you say, yeah, you have to make modifications. I’m not gonna sit there and tell you that we haven’t. But there was a time where we, like, literally, again, like I said, you could almost laugh at the Keystone cop element of it, the naivety of it, but it sure as heck worked for REM and U too.

You know, sometimes people talk about, you know, going to court and I always tell people like, going to court is sort of like being on stage at some level, you know, like, you know, do I get nervous right before I go on stage? Sure. Did I get nervous right before court start? Sure. But you know, are you prepared?

Did you rehearse? Are you gonna put on a show? I mean, you know, we know judges, you know, us litigators know judges aren’t really looking for the show, but you are still putting on some kind of show to advocate and you’re definitely putting on some show for your client. And I think when it was came, it didn’t, I don’t wanna say it came naturally for me, but I don’t think it was as [00:35:00] difficult for me because.

I had already spent those formative years of my life, you know, throwing it all out there on the stage. So that’s always translated as well too as far as the music’s concerned. But I mean, there again, to me, it always comes down to people in relationships and band or peoples in relationships.

And so our partnerships and law firms, you know, at some level, and, you know, it’s what, when you make your priorities, I was just at band practice last night and we’re talking about another band and someone got kicked out. I’m like, we’re in our fifties and sixties, who’s kicking people outta bands anymore?

This is just supposed to be for fun. You know, what, what happened? You know? and it was, it was like a business thing and I was like, Ugh. You know, at this point it should just be about friends and having fun, you know? And at some level, because Jon and I are here, everybody, listeners, I don’t wanna say this is how you start off, but at this point, Jon and I have been together for 20 years, and at some point it is about being friends and having fun and making sure we’re still enjoying it and.

And maybe that’s not the model for everybody, but at some point that’s what’s kept, I think me and Jon at this point [00:36:00] in our careers, saying like, you know, we don’t have to make it any more difficult than it has to be.

Real quick. Thanks for listening. If you’re getting any value out of this podcast, please take two seconds to hit the subscribe button and leave a five star review. It would really mean a lot to me. Now back to the show.

Jonathan Hawkins: All right, let’s talk about music, man. You know, so I grew up a drummer. I don’t get to play as much now, so, you know, I’ve always loved music. I don’t, and this is something I wanna ask you about. I don’t really have a whole lot of time now to do it, so we’ll get into that too. But, so take me back, man.

How did you get into music? How long you’ve been playing? I know you’ve been in bands basically your whole life, so how’d you get into it?

Hannibal Heredia: I just, you know, I know there’s some people who like do, who can do sports and music and movies and all that, but I mean, I just, I love music. I mean, I could literally watch documentaries about music all day long, about even people I, I’m not a big fan of I don’t wanna get booed, but I remember watching something during COVID and my wife came in like, you don’t even like this person.

I’m like, yeah, but I’m watching it ’cause I’m learning something. It’s just [00:37:00] always intrigued me. My, my father loved the radio, loved music. He bought seven inch 40 fives. I mean, I’ve still got ’em in my basement that my dad bought. He would buy 40 fives and I mean, he loved. Hooky music and I, I love pop hooky music, really.

It’s probably still kind of where I land on a lot of stuff. MTV was a huge thing for a kid, you know, growing up in Montgomery, I was probably 14 when it hit Montgomery and seeing all those bands from, you know, Europe and Britain come over and, and then little by little, you know, when I got to college, I grew up in the eighties, so that college radio was a huge influence and, you know, got into the, you know, the bricks that lay the foundation for, you know, nirvana for example.

You know, so I’m, you know, listening to Husker Do and Replacements and

Jonathan Hawkins: Oh man,

Hannibal Heredia: yeah, then you go further back and you know, you’re into who, who influenced them and you know, so people go well, which

Jonathan Hawkins: minute men. You got

Hannibal Heredia: love men. Love men. Men love

Jonathan Hawkins: There aren’t many of us out there,

man.

Hannibal Heredia: Hedgie saw [00:38:00] the minuteman open up for REM at Washington Lee at his fraternity, I think.

Jonathan Hawkins: Damn

Hannibal Heredia: yeah, it’s amazing. It’s amazing. And I never saw, I mean, there’s so many bands that I worship and love that I never gotta see ’cause I was a kid, you know? But like the music, and then I would read the books and then I’ve seen the documentaries, you know, and it’s just that people will say, well, what’s your favorite?

You know, I’m like, eh, I’m kind of a punk rocker, new wave post punk kid. That’s kind of where I am. But I mean, again, I love Abba. I love a lot of pop music, but that’s kind of where I did. So, because I wasn’t the most advanced guitar player in the planet it, it spoke to me for that reason too. And so, you know, I mean, we started doing bands at 15.

My brother’s a, I mean, as Junk. ’cause my brother, he’s an amazing drummer, just an amazing drummer. When he was here in Atlanta, you know, people were always trying to steal him from me. so we did, we were in bands and we played with friends and then we quit playing with friends and we moved I outta law school.

I did not get a job for a while. That’s when I first met Hedgepeth. That’s how I met Hedgepeth. My wife and I were [00:39:00] working at a temp job at Austin and Bird during the, that recession of 93. And she was like, had found out I played in a band. She’s like, my, my husband loves music. Why don’t we come see you play this weekend?

It was Midtown Music Hall, which is where the Highlander is in Mu Midtown now. The high’s closed. They had a club there, great club, and he came and saw me. It’s for some, I met him, you know, and you know, Jon said something about my guitar playing whatever. And then we kind of hit it off and we, that was it December, 1993.

And so it was music that brought us together. I borrowed a guitar from him one time because my guitar had broken. And that’s how we started. And so we, Jane gets credit. She likes to, I always ask for it, and she does. She gets credit. She introduced us, his wife, and we we met that night at at the Mu Midtown Music Hall.

So, you know, play. The only time I think I didn’t have an active band, which wouldn’t surprise people, was lost, Colin,

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah.

Hannibal Heredia: you know, that was about like no time. There was a few people. And then about my third year, I put a little band [00:40:00] together with some of the other folks that played, and we played the LAR View party, whatever, like, award ceremony or something.

We did a bunch of covers. And it was fun. We had a great drummer and a great great bass player. I was like, man, I wish I could bring this guy back to Atlanta. He was great bass player. He had played in real bands, played punk music and stuff like that. But that was it. I mean, I’ve always played in bands.

It is what keeps me sane. I don’t golf. I do, I play music and listen to music and read about music and watch music and,

Jonathan Hawkins: you know, I guess, you know, I guess if it’s important to you, you’ll find the time, but I mean really, I mean, practicing law takes a lot of time running a firm, which is different than practicing law. It takes a lot of time. You know, you got family, kids and all that you gotta deal with. I mean, you got all these things.

So how do you find the time? You know, you said you had band practices last night, or is it tonight or whatever. I mean, how, how do you find the time

Hannibal Heredia: So

Jonathan Hawkins: how do you make the

Hannibal Heredia: it you, you, it is, you go through different it’s fun, funny, [00:41:00] sorry, that you go through different ways of dealing with it based on where everyone else is having kids. So, most of the, a lot of the people I play with now, their kids are outta the house, so it makes it a little bit easier. But it’s funny because even though the kids are outta the house, you’re still doing the Rubik’s Cube, you know, because one guy’s in three bands and, you know, one guy’s in a band of tours and one, you know, one person, you know, teaches at this college.

And so he prefer Tuesday night. So. Like a managing partner, you do logistics and so you create a practice schedule and you have to rely on everybody doing their homework. ’cause if you don’t, this isn’t like when you’re in twenties and you just got six hours and you still get, I would still get mad like, why did you do your homework?

But you know, I, I play in an original music band, so there’s a little less homework, but, you know, but if we’re gonna do a show, it’s like, Hey, you know, did you remember how we played the song? You know, because you’re gonna have only so many opportunities to practice. So you’re absolutely correct.

I mean, this [00:42:00] isn’t 1990s Atlanta before I got married, and you’d go see a band play and they’d like, oh, let’s go practice room. And you’d go to the practice room from 2:00 AM to 6:00 AM drinking beer and playing. And that, that doesn’t happen. So at some level people who can play and can do that have bubbled to the top.

And you play with people that can play and do that, you know? If you play by yourself, I mean, you know, with technology you can do a lot of stuff and make that time, but if you’re trying to play with others, and that’s the biggest thing I get from, from folks like you, Jonathan, like, especially the drummers, is like, I just wanna, I just need to find some people.

But it’s like finding people that you can, and everyone’s always looking for a drummer, which is so ironic. Like, you guys are so rare. Like a good drummer’s so rare and a good bass player is so rare to find, everybody plays guitar. But it’s just trying to find good people that you can go look, you know, here’s how we gonna do it.

We’re gonna do on the schedule, you know, learn these songs or be ready with this, and then you go do it. ’cause otherwise someone’s gonna get frustrated. And then things happen, you know, somebody’s kid gets sick, you know, somebody’s, you know, [00:43:00] kid’s flying back in their plane gets stuck. So you gotta have some flexibility.

But being in the scene of the whatever, you know, there’s a lot of folks that I know and you can kind of put people together and, and do stuff. And that helps a lot. I mean, it would be hard to start from scratch, I think.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, it’s funny, so, you know, growing up my parents got me a drum set. I don’t know, sixth grade, something like that. And you know, and it’s loud. It’s not like guitar where you can put headphones on or maybe just do the acoustic. I mean, you’re playing, man. Everybody, Everybody in the house knows about it.

So my sisters hated it. And so, you know, usually you would practice at the drummer’s house, although once I could drive, you know, I would pack it in there and we’d go somewhere. But it is, it is a big, yeah, big production man, just to go practice. And so like now I’m thinking. You know, could I, could I load my drums up, you know, with the little time I have and get there?

Or would we have to do it at my house? And like my wife and kids would be like, hell no, you’re not doing this at our house. So it’s like, then I’m like, well, shit, I need to like build a soundproof room or [00:44:00] something. It is like all of it. Now my dream is it’s gonna happen. We’re almost there. My kids are gonna be getting out.

I’m gonna figure it out. But, you know, but again, you know, it’s just getting there. But I will say this, you know, the funnest, I look back, the best period of my life was, it was summer after junior year. And I had a lifeguarding job and we, And we played music every day. I mean, it was like all, I mean, when I wasn’t working, we were at somebody’s house jamming and getting in some other stuff too.

But it was incredible. The best summer of my life, I miss it so much. But if I could recreate that summer,

Hannibal Heredia: absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it’s just you know, and, and I, I know people always admire people like us that can do it and sometimes they don’t understand, you know, the work that goes behind it. And there’s people who like, they’ll call, they’ll send me an email like, Hey, can you play this party?

And I’m like, you just don’t. It’s not like you add water and we just pop up. I’m like, y’all have a PA. No, you know, I’m not playing on like, you [00:45:00] know, crooked cement and you know, and again, it sounds snotty, but they just don’t understand that. Now there’s people like, they’ll like, heck yeah, I’d go play your driveway.

I get it. Like, I mean it’s, I mean, you know, but there’s a lot of work that gets involved. Like you said, there’s a lot of logistics that get involved, but the ability to go back to 11th grade when you didn’t care and you just would play the broken cement and you would just have fun was, those were great times.

You know, we, I mean, I remember in college, we played in a metal warehouse. I mean, it must have just been kill in our ears. But

Jonathan Hawkins: Oh yeah, I will say that my ears are shot. I’ll say that.

Hannibal Heredia: That’s terrible. You’re hitting those symbols too hard is what it’s.

Jonathan Hawkins: know, well, I wear earplugs everywhere now. But, you know, the other thing, the other thing I, that, you know, musicians know this, but like, when you’re playing with people like 3, 4, 5, 6 plus other people, you know, every now and then you guys just get right in sync in the groove, right? And it’s like, you know, you’re not always there, but when you’re there, it’s just an incredible feeling.

And it’s like addictive. I mean, it’s just

Hannibal Heredia: Oh, [00:46:00] it’s it, you are, you’re it’s cre Creativity comes from the word create, and it’s, you’re creating something, whether you’re recreating a band or jamming on a song and finding the spot or creating a pop song. There’s just something about it. There’s, there are occasionally people that’s just kind of, you know, manual dexterity for ’em, and they don’t have that, and, you know, and that’s, they have a place in the world.

But I think a lot of the people I enjoy working with, it’s just, you know, it comes from here, you know, and some, I’ve worked with people who can’t read a lick of music, you know, and just, you. You learn it, it comes from here, it comes from the soul. Really believe that. So,

Jonathan Hawkins: All right, so you’ve been in a bunch of bands. You’ve got, I guess one now, you did originals. I know, some years ago I went and track tracked down whatever band you were in on on Apple Music. So I know you’ve got some stuff out there. So for people out there that wanna want to find you, you know what, what’s the current band or how do they

Hannibal Heredia: i’m gonna, I, I don’t know when this is gonna air, so it’s probably gonna air after the big show Saturday, but I am playing Saturday the 26th, which is tomorrow. So it’ll probably be a my class [00:47:00] tribute band is playing Variety playoffs. So we are opening for the Smiths tribute band. So it’s a night of tribute bands.

The, I’ve been amazed at the presales on tickets. So there’s a good crowd, looks like already professional stage, profess, you know, things. So I’m, again I’m very blessed and flattered and lucky that, you know, people still allow me to do what I wanna do, especially like a venue variety playout. So that’s a class tribute.

Band Clash is probably still my favorite band along with The Beatles. And and so I put that together about 12 years ago and we had a hiatus after COVID because I focused on my original music band. And I brought it back last year. And I’ve always been friends with the Smiths band and so we put, got the, we got someone to put promote the show for us.

So we’ll see how it goes. I think I’m very excited about him. Last night was, was rocking. but I, I still my first love is original music. I’ve done it practically from the beginning, but definitely since college on, just write my own songs and. Put that together. I’ve done different styles. My current band is VX word I made up, and it’s [00:48:00] indie pop.

It’s got hooks, but it’s kind of from an indie rock vibe. Think some nineties type styles from that era of like pavement and things like that. But also you can hear a lot of eighties in it, I guess I’m just a child of the eighties you know, keyboard, guitar, drums that I, I play guitar and sing and terrific players.

They out, they all outplay me by millions of miles. I’m the weak link, but they have to put up with me, my, and my silly songs. But that’s, that is on Spotify, wherever you get your streaming music. But thanks for asking. And we probably do a couple shows a year with that band. But again, like we’ll do to your original question, we’ll do like maybe four practices and go do the show.

And we don’t, I’m not there like I was in younger days going every. Every week, especially in my current family life, I have a young child and it would just be like, you know, it’s silly. I don’t need to, I don’t need to escape every week. But it is nice to get out there and see the guys and do the music.

Jonathan Hawkins: And you also, I mean, from time to time you get together with other lawyers and judges, right? And have sort of a or is that the [00:49:00] bands you’re in now? I

Hannibal Heredia: Oh, the, the, there was a, a, there still exists called the specific deviations. And that was a band that still exists, that’s all family lawyers. Occasionally a judge judge Kel, who’s retired now, was singing and there was a judge from. Georgia, fantastic guitar player. Jay Stewart would sometimes join us.

I got put on bass and I loved playing bass. I, I loved playing bass and I was loved playing bass because everybody else that was so freaking good. I mean, there was just so much talent on that stage. And there were, the specific deviations is named after area of the child support law and think that began in 2010.

And I, I haven’t joined them for the last two or three. It’s, they do an annual show. But fantastic players. I mean, someone asked me one time, why are so many lawyers that play music? I guess something probably the same part of your brain is probably being tickled in both places. There’s a bunch of guys in any rock scene that are lawyers of [00:50:00] Kilpatrick and Turner and other places that I know.

But yeah, that, that band comes music aviation was a lot of fun. I, I learned a lot of covers. I had never. Learned in my life playing like Alman brother stuff I’d never learned. I, I got to learn that. It was a lot of fun doing that kind of stuff.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, the, the big firm lawyers that are still playing music really amaze me ’cause I mean, just the time and commitment there, just on, on the work side. so here, here’s a question for you. So, you know a lot of lawyers out there, and I see this a lot in succession planning context or transitioning down to the next generation. You know, there’s a lot of lawyers that their identity is so caught up in being a lawyer that, you know, they’re gonna die at their desk. They can never let it go. They got nothing else they can do.

And you spent so much time doing it, all this, all the reasons. And so, you know, maybe we all, all lawyers have that a little bit, but you, I’m curious if somebody asks you what do you do or what are you, do you identify, are you a, are you a musician or are you an attorney? How, do you [00:51:00] introduce yourself? How do you answer that question?

Hannibal Heredia: Oh, that’s a great question. You know, I’m gonna go sideways on you as, like, as a, as like a terrible witness on the stand. I mean, I guess I always identified myself more first as husband, father and friend. Those are the three things I think I take very serious and have always tried to excel at.

And I think, again, taking, you know, the reason we’re on this podcast going back to me and Jon founding this firm, we had growing pains, but it’s the friendship that’s kept that alive and always being able to relate to each other as we’ve grown up older together and see where we are. And it being, you know, honest with one another, being trustworthy with one another.

But if you were to say, Hey, what do you consider yourself a lawyer or a musician? Yeah, it’s a hundred percent musician. I find, and I don’t wanna insult people who feel differently, but I find this to be my job. You know, I’ve never, I mean, especially family, I don’t take it home. It’s, you know, I’m married to a family lawyer, so sometimes it’s, it’s fun to kind of [00:52:00] rap about stuff because she understands the lingo versus like, you know, a non-lawyer who’s like, what are you talking about?

You know, and she’s been in the trenches and it’s great to have that. But, you know, other than that, it’s like, don’t take it home. You know, keep it over there. I’d much rather be, you know, watching a documentary about, you know, the band or the police than, you know, worrying about, did I stick my billable hours in today?

Or I have to go deal with that email. Also, you know, it’s been lucky to have a firm, so you have folks underneath you who are building their lives and their practices. I’m not gonna, I gotta give a shout out to the fact that they allow me to do that, but you know, I’ve always considered it my job.

It’s a job. You know, if I worked at, and it is a service industry, it’s like, you know, one of my foreign parts, like, you know, we’re serving fries at some level. We’re providing a service. Let’s do the best job. Let’s, Let’s do, let’s make the best fries and maybe the most fries, but let’s make some good fries.

You know, we’re in a service industry and I do take it serious, but it’s a job musician, the ship and, and, and the love of music, again, it sounds corny, but it’s from here, it’s from the [00:53:00] heart, it’s from the soul. It, there’s something that you, like you said when you were in that, that, that summer that you were a kid, or when you get that groove, it’s in here.

It’s hard to explain to people. And especially coming off a stage, it’s not it’s part the adoration, but I think it’s part I always would I enjoy is just like, Hey I’m here to entertain. You know, I’m gonna give you my all, I’ve always been into like, putting on the show for folks and you know, so that’s I wanna give as much as they’re giving back.

And, it’s hard to explain that. And, and I, I enjoy the successes in law and obviously in family law when you’re trying to help some folks, but it’s a different, it’s a different result. It really is. At least for me,

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, that, that’s awesome. I’m so happy that you’ve been able to maintain the music. I mean, I, it’s my fault, but I wish I had, I’ll just say that. But

Hannibal Heredia: it’s not too late.

Jonathan Hawkins: you know, you know,

Hannibal Heredia: This podcast is gonna get you gigs. I mean, look,

Jonathan Hawkins: told my wife, you know, that’s my midlife crisis. I’m gonna quit everything and I’m gonna start, I’m gonna go on tour.

So,

Hannibal Heredia: look, they’re always looking for drummers. Hedgie needs a drummer. Let’s get y’all [00:54:00] together

Jonathan Hawkins: I need, I need to, I need to get the sticks out. Start get my chops back. But,

Hannibal Heredia: riding a bike.

Jonathan Hawkins: So shifting back to the firm, so, you know, you’ve been at it 20 years. You’ve had your growing pains, as you’ve said, you know, if you’ve had these other lawyers come to you for advice put you on the spot. You know, what advice maybe you give for folks out there that are thinking about starting firm, or maybe they’re in the early stages, you know, how do you build a firm that lasts more than a year or so?

Hannibal Heredia: If you’re gonna, you know, if you’re gonna completely go solo you know, then my advice would be on, you know, you have to keep the business side up. It’s easy to forget that. And the second part is, you know, whether you like it or not, there’s some level of marketing that’s involved in this, you know?

And now, again, if you could survive on three or four cases, great. You know, but it’s very easy, again, for lawyers, like doctors, I hear to just be worried about, you know, fixing, you know, and not do your business. You gotta do your [00:55:00] business. You gotta do your business. But if you’re gonna do in a partnership or if you’re gonna have associates, you’re gonna build a firm goes back again, sounds corn ballish, it’s people and relationships.

I’ve said it I think in a couple contexts already, that it’s about people and it’s about relationships. And you have to focus on that. It’s again, just, I produce, you know, X dollars and you produce Y dollars and it’s people in relationships, it’s relationships with other firms, relationships with the judge, relationships with your staff, relationships with the associates.

You bring in relationship with your partner. Who are these people? You’re going to be in relationships within, you know, you can’t predict everything. I like I, I shout out to, you know, to Jonathan Hawkins, but I, I read your thing every Friday and I, I save some of ’em, and I read, I remember one you sent about associates and I read it to the other partners.

You know, why, why, you know, you gotta cultivate ’em. You know, you gotta, you can’t just be like doing the math. To me, again, that’s about people and relationships, that’s about investing in people and [00:56:00] investing in a relationship. And this person match your firm’s, you know, code the way your brand, how they, how y’all function.

This is person gonna eventually in time, but if you’re like just doing dollars, you know, you’re likely gonna boot ’em out. And if you go back to the 1970s and eighties, we used to do that with bands. We let them grow, we’d let them cultivate, we let them brew. And that’s why we have these fantastic records these days.

It’s like one shot go, one shot, you know, you know, and it’s terrible what we’ve done. Of course, we’ve all rejected and everybody can just record their bedrooms. But I think that thing about treating people and as relationships and what they can bring and, and quoting you from that email, I mean, that’s what’s important.

If you’re gonna expand, there’s a lot of people searching family law that can just go out on their own and literally, you know, get a printer and. I know ’em they, they’re doing a good job. They’re, They’re making the, the money you wanna make. And that’s, it’s a little different. It’s a little different, but always mind your business.

Go get a bookkeeper.

Jonathan Hawkins: Great, Great advice. So, last [00:57:00] question. I like to ask this question because I’m always curious, you know what, again, you’ve got your whole other thing you do on the band side and, and that can be part of this answer as well. But, you know, as you sit here what’s, what’s the vision going forward for the firm, for the band for your family, whatever it is, over the next, you know, 15, 20 years?

What’s the vision?

Hannibal Heredia: Woo. My wife’s gonna be like, I just wanna fast forward to that part. you know, I think it’s as we get older, it’s, you know, you do have to look at those things, you know, I’m almost 60 and, you gotta look at where are you going? You know, I, it’s a hard gig doing family law. I say it all the time to family lawyers and non-family lawyers. I mean, you can empirically prove that this is a hard gig.

This is, they’re basically doing psych, you know, therapy with folks without being trained to be a therapist. So, and you know, and Jon and I talk about things. Do I expect to do this until you know the grave? No, I don’t. I’ve [00:58:00] never thought that’s where I would be. You know, I know it’s hard for people to go, what do I do next?

I’m not naive to think that I, you know, I’m gonna hang up the shingle at 65 and I’m gonna become a rock star. There’s no one’s hiring 65 rules. They’re a young man’s game. But I think I can take the things I’ve learned practicing law, people, relationships, understanding people’s, you kind of become a, a mini therapist and the relationships and people I’ve met playing music and figure out some way to take the thing I value so much in this world, which is folks and people, I’m being honest with them and, and having people want you to assist them.

And I’ll, you know, I’m not sure exactly what it is. I wanna reveal my secrets right now, but I feel like there has to be a world out there. Kinda like when I left law school, I was like, I what I’m to do, but I’ve got a law degree now. I’ll figure it out. And I’ve, you know, I’ve enjoyed my career. I can’t, you know, there’s been a lot of things, you know, that are hard about it being family lawyer.

But I’ve enjoyed my career and I’ve enjoyed the people I’ve met and the [00:59:00] relationships that I’ve made. And I feel like there’s something out there where I can do that. Well, I and I, I keep on playing, I’ll plan on playing music you know, so that’s definitely gonna be out there. I mean, maybe one day it’ll, someone could take in my call and I will be on the uneven concrete on someone’s driveway, you know? Playing the party, you know, covering Louis Louie and, and Gloria.

Jonathan Hawkins: You can go out like Colonel Bruce Hampton in his eighties on stage.

Hannibal Heredia: on stage. That was amazing. The the guy who interviewed me for that, for a magazine also wrote a book about Colonel Briney. He gave it to me a copy. It was very nice to gimme a copy. And, it’s, it’s a great book about reading about a little bit his life and that, that farewell was just great, you

Jonathan Hawkins: It, it,

Hannibal Heredia: until the end.

Jonathan Hawkins: it was like a movie. I mean, it’s

Hannibal Heredia: It was, I mean, the documentary has to come out if it hasn’t already. Like, it just, I mean, and that’s just, you know, and, that’s how he lived. I mean, honestly, guys, come on. The guy just toured, didn’t have hits, just toured played music. But, you [01:00:00] know, so yeah. I mean, you know, we’ll see.

I mean, it’s, it is a hard gig. It’s a hard gig to do this and ’cause you’re dealing with people at the hardest parts of their lives. But

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, good thing is you’ve got lots of other things going so that bring you joy. So, you know, not all of us have that, so that’s really good. But Hannibal well, thanks for coming on, man. I wanna be respectful of your time. This has been really fun. There’s a whole lot more we could talk about, but, I wanna wanna let you go with the rest of your day.

But for people out there that wanna find you, wanna find your music, whatever, what’s the best way to get in touch with

Hannibal Heredia: well, first of all, thank you very much for having us. I think we could talk for a few more hours about all these different topics. It’s been a blast. But the firm is Hedgepeth Heredia hhfamilylaw.com. Vectralux is V-E-C-T-R-A-L-U-X. Think of like a 1960s vacuum cleaner. Vectralux, we’re on Spotify, we’re on the worldwide web.

But it’s, it’s been a blast. I enjoy talking to you always and we’re gonna get you in a [01:01:00] band man. We can get you back out there.

Jonathan Hawkins: Let’s do it. Let’s do it. Alright, man. Appreciate it.

Hannibal Heredia: You too. Thank you.

OutroUpdatedWebsite-1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the founding partner podcast. Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to stay up to date on the latest episodes. You can also connect with Jonathan on LinkedIn and check out the show notes. With links to resources mentioned throughout our discussion by visiting www.lawfirmgc.com. We’ll see you next time for more origin stories and insights from successful law firm founders.